Joanne Mattern: Dunlewy, that is an excellent observation and good to know! :-)

Joanne Mattern: just wanted to share with everyone why I like writing biographies in the first place. Biographies aren't that much different from novels to me. Like a novel, a bio follows a character through important and often life-changing experiences. People from the past or people who are famous are PEOPLE, first and foremost. They had family troubles, personal issues, dreams and challenges, just like you and me. Just like the reader. And just like the character in a novel. A good biography isn't just a list of dates and events. It's a life story, and STORY is the most important word. Of course you can't make things up or change what really happened when writing a bio the way you can in a novel, but it's a story just the same. Looking at it that way will make your writing more exciting and make the reader more engaged and interested as well.

Fancy: Yes! What a wonderful way to phrase it. When I was a kid, biography was my favorite section of the library. When done correctly, a biography tells a great story and transports you to a different place and time like nothing else does. My goodness, now I'm going to have to think about writing one! But first I must get a copy of your book on William Penn. "Fond of a frolic and remarkable untidy" ? Gotta love it!

Okami: Do you think it's possible to love reading certain types of books you just don't write well or want to write at all?

Joanne Mattern: I absolutely think it's possible to enjoy reading books you don't want to write, or aren't capable of writing successfully. I love fantasy and historical novels, but my attempts to write them are embarrassingly awful. I also think it's good to stretch yourself and read genres you haven't tried before. What have you got to lose?

jeanne42: As you do your background research about a potential biography topic, what resources do you use to identify 'what's been written about them already'? Do you check magazine-length pieces as well as novel-length? Do web articles count toward the 'already been done' total? Also, do you find that some publishers are willing to assign a topic? If so, how does someone breaking in find those publishers and offer themselves as a writer willing to take on a project?

Joanne Mattern: I use all sorts of research: books, magazine articles, newspaper articles, Web content, whatever I can find. Many of the educational publishers will assign topics. That is where I get most of my assignments. This isn't the topic for it, but look at other articles and forums on ICL for information on educational publishers. There are also Websites that give information about publishers and what they are looking for. Ev Christensen's Website is a great start. The SCBWI also publishes a market guide.

LisaU: How do I find primary sources especially regarding someone who lived 150 years ago?

Joanne Mattern: Look for any diaries or letters the person might have written. Also, read primary sources about the time and place your subject lived. You can find great insight into the time period that you can use in your ms. and also clues and leads to other sources.

Okami: Do you feel part of the fear many people have of writing biographies, or just nonfiction in general, is getting those primary sources for the bibliography creates this "silent" pressure of the facts mattering more than the heart of the story you're trying to write? How do you balance the two in a way that doesn't drive you batty?

Joanne Mattern: As for pressure, some people might feel the way you described. It is a big responsibility, presenting someone's life in an accurate and interesting way. However, I LOVE the research and look at it as a puzzle to solve, so for me it's fun.

ColoradoKate: What are the rules for writing biographies for kids, in terms of adding fictionalized details such as invented dialogue? It seems as if sticking purely with the facts, especially for long-dead subjects, could result in a dry, encyclopedic manuscript. But wouldn't making things up result in historical fiction rather than a biography? If one could interview the subject or people who knew the subject, then I could see how the writing could be livelier, in the way that memoirs include dialogue and events that are remembered as best they can be. But where does one draw the line?

Joanne Mattern: This is a really great question and I'm glad you brought it up. Fictionalized dialogue is a big NO. Publishers won't touch books with fictionalized or invented content. However, there are ways to get around this, especially with people who are famous. Look for letters they wrote, or diaries they kept. Autobiographies are great, as are interviews with newspapers or magazines. Using these sources has always worked for me--I've never had any trouble finding quotes from anyone I've written about, from William Penn to Kim Kardashian.

ColoradoKate: Thanks! So, do you turn the quotes into dialogue? Put them in a scene, so to speak? Or are they presented as quotes, the same way you'd quote an expert you had interviewed for a science article, say?

Joanne Mattern:No, I do not turn the quotes into dialogue but present them in the way they were spoken. So: "Ms. X wrote to a friend after the incident, saying..." or "Mr. X told an interviewer from the New York Times that..."

dunlewy: What if there were no written accounts, say for someone who was illiterate or just didn't write. Then, any dialogue would make the story historical fiction?

Joanne Mattern:Invented dialogue does lean more toward historical fiction, yes. If I'm writing a biography, I wouldn't include dialogue if I didn't have actual quotes.

anita3: If you don't use quotes, is it all narration? How do you show instead of tell? Action?

Jan Fields:Note that a LOT of nonfiction is told, not shown. Telling doesn't mean boring or bad. If the thing you are telling is interesting and compelling, then you'll still hold the reader -- especially if you pay attention to your voice, tone, pacing and use of language.

Jan Fields:Like fiction, biography is a story -- but it does tend to be a story told. The more you read really interesting recent biographies, the more you'll understand the way they're constructed and how they don't have the same style as fiction.

LisaU: Is there a market for biographies on lesser known historical figures?

Joanne Mattern: Unfortunately, it is much harder to publish bios of lesser known figures. Publishers want names that will sell, names that kids have to write reports about or who are studied in school. I have a bio of a woman scientist who did amazing things for cancer research, but since no one has ever heard of her, I haven't been able to find a publisher. I think your best bet to find a publisher for a book about a lesser known person is if that person has a tie to a significant event, such as the Civil Rights movement or the Holocaust or something like that.

Okami: I don't get why this is so. I mean, how many times can you re-tell the life of George Washington or Madame Curie before it's like "Enough already! Can't we give someone else, ANYONE else, a chance, whether or not they knew or influenced a president or an infamous activist?"

Joanne Mattern: Okami, you make an excellent point. Yes, there are lesser-known people who deserve to be written about so people will learn about them. I have a school librarian friend who always says she wants to write a book called The Lesser-Known Kings of Egypt because she was so tired of her students writing about King Tut. :-) The key is to grab the reader's attention either through historical background or some amazing event that the subject went through or took part in, and draw the reader in that way.

Jan Fields:Also, one thing that drives publisher decisions is sales. Lesser known figures are less likely to be picked up by libraries and schools, who buy historical biographies for kids mostly as sources for reports. And children's reports tend to be about known figures. If your book is the ONLY book about a lesser known figure, then it won't fit a report that requires more than one source. So the kidparent has to be buying/reading it simply for fun/interest. Or the school/library must be buying it for it's connection to a historical EVENT rather than for the person himself/herself.

BethC: Doesn't it stand to reason that if something is written about a person, then people will get to know them? I understand what you are saying, but I'm just being curious if people become better known when they have something written about them?

Joanne Mattern: Yes, if something is written about a person people will get to know him/her better, BUT your audience has to have a reason to want to read about that person. If they see a book about someone they've never heard of, they're likely to go right past it to someone who is more interesting to them. So it's up to you, the writer, to give your reader something that makes them say, "Hey, who IS this person? I want to know more!" That's where the link to historical events come from, or you can focus on something amazing the person did or endured and grab your reader that way.

Joanne Mattern: Look at Laura Hillenbrand's book Unbroken. I--and many readers--had never heard of the book's subject, but I was interested in the link to WWII. And once I heard about what her subject went through, I couldn't wait to read the book.

Jan Fields:Something I'm seeing A LOT in my review pile lately is group biographies of lesser known people published to draw attention to an often overlooked group like African-American Inventors or Women in WWII or other such group biographies. The individuals are often folks I never heard of, but collectively they're people who are often overlooked.

Joanne Mattern: Good point, Jan! I've always liked collective biographies because they can introduce you to people you've never heard of before.

Jennifer: I'm developing a middle grade biography to submit to educational publishers such as Capstone, Enslow, Rosen, etc. All of the series I'm looking at are 100+ pages but each publisher has somewhat different approaches. Is it okay for me to query them for interest before I write the entire manuscript? I have completed my research, have a solid outline and the first couple of chapters done. I would tailor my proposals to their specific requirements but if there's interest, will they want to see the full manuscript right away or be comfortable with providing time for me to finish it based on their particular approach? Your advice about how to make lesser known historical figures more appealing is very helpful, by the way.

Joanne Mattern: Yes, querying is a good idea at this point. Be sure to study each publisher's guidelines and send what they want. You'll probably want to send a sample chapter, especially if the guidelines state that. Also be sure to research the series you're submitting for, and let the publisher know you've done this through your query letter. Editors love authors who have done their homework and taken the time to make sure a market is right for their work.

Jennifer: I appreciate your advice about querying educational publishers. So, sounds like it's okay to not have the manuscript completely done if the publisher asks for a proposal as a first step as long as you meet all elements in the guideline and can submit a sample chapter or two if they want. I assume it's best to indicate where you're at with the manuscript in the query letter. If they are interested in the project, is your experience that they will indicate a desired timeline to finish the manuscript or is it best to indicate upfront how much time would be needed?

Joanne Mattern: It's definitely okay to submit before you have a complete ms. As for deadlines, I wouldn't indicate that you could finish it whatever amount of time. Publishing moves very slowly most of the time, and it will probably be months before you even hear back about your query. If the publisher asks to see the ms., you will wait for more months again! If you're lucky enough to land a deal, the due dates will be worked out at that point.

LisaU: What should be included or excluded in a query letter for a biography?

Joanne Mattern: I would definitely include a short summary of the subject's life and why he/she is important. Why should kids read about him/her? What makes your book special and different from other books about the subject? Is there a link to the school curriculum that will make the book more appealing to teachers and librarians? Why are you qualified to write the book? The goal of a query letter is to pique the editor's interest and make him/her want to read the whole ms. So you don't want to say too much, but you want to make the editor think you have something valuable that hasn't been done before.

Okami: I don't really understand how people can be really unique in nonfiction, especially when in biographies, since you must adhere to proven facts, especially when your chosen subject is dead, or not alive but out of your reach, and you can't go to him or her directly, so how can you cover a fresh angle on a life story? I know for example there many biographies about Abraham Lincoln and Benjamin Franklin, but how can you find your own approach to these life stories while still being loyal to the facts?

Joanne Mattern: I've said this before, but it's important so I'll say it again: A fresh point of view is what is going to make your biography stand out from the crowd. It's up to the writer to find that point of view, that information or angle that's going to make editors (and readers) say, "Hey, I want to know about this person!" For me, this aspect is part of the fun. It's like solving a puzzle--where is that missing piece that will make my picture come together?

Ella: One way is to look at the story from a different angle. Think about a 100 people with cameras in front of some historic monument. Half of them will take the same shot from straight on, but someone will lie down on the ground to take the shot, and someone will climb a tree, and someone will wait 'til sunset, and someone may place some prop in front, etc. It's always the same monument (or set of facts), but you can composed or lined up the shot differently.

Ella: Some examples of nonfiction books I've seen that have taken new approaches to well-documented nonfiction:
-- the friendship between American naturalist John Muir and a little girl
-- George Washington's role as a farmer
-- the journey of a famous archeological find, from creation to becoming a museum piece
-- the relationship between John Adams and Thomas Jefferson

Ella: I think the way people find different angles, is they think about a particular subject through the lens of a particular premise. That lets them focus and emphasize that one (novel) thing while letting the other stuff (that's already been done) fade into the background. You find out about something, and some little line or fact resonates with you (huh... George Washington spent more of his life as a farmer than anything else, but that part always gets skipped in the biographies) and then start digging to see if you canet enough info on to expand that little fact into a full ms.

anita3: Joanne, I'm wondering if a biography on a bee keeper, or a scientist would be publishable even if they are not well known people?

Joanne Mattern:Yes, I think so, as long as you have a "hook" to grab readers--which you would for a high-interest occupation like beekeeping.

Ella: I wonder, then, though, if really what you would be writing is a biography, or if you would be writing a nonfiction piece on a specific topic (occupation) through the lens of a "subject matter expert." Highlights for Children often has NF like this -- where one person is highlighted, but only to be the vehicle to let kids know about some cool animal, sport, occupation, research, event, etc.

Jan Fields:Yes, the biographies that I've seen of this time are much like expanded HIGHLIGHTS articles...they cover the subject through a profile of the subject. They don't wander far off from the topic at hand. But, in some ways they're like your "premise" idea earlier -- George Washington as Farmer" is going to emphasize farming over other elements in his life. The biography of a beekeeper in book form will behave in a similar way -- it will emphasize the elements of the person's life that are related to beekeeping and it will look at any other elements through the lens of "beekeeping."

dmcdine: Thank you for your valuable responses to all the wonderful questions, much appreciated.

BethC: Yes, thank you for coming and sharing with us! It has been wonderful to learn so much from you!

Joanne Mattern: ou're welcome, everyone! I was very happy to share and hope I've inspired some of you to write biographies and get them published. Good luck!!