Instititute of Children's Literature

Rx for Writers

Transcripts

"Creating Successful Critique Groups" with Jill Rubalcaba

Thursday, July 6, 2000

MODERATOR is Kristi Holl, author of 23 books for children, over l00 articles for children and adults, and the web editor for this site.

Jill is Jill Rubalcaba, author of four children's books with Clarion and numerous stories and articles in magazines like Highlights for Children, Pockets, Cricket and Odyssey. She understands the writer's need for support and nurturing to find the strength to continue despite rejections and negative reviews, and she's created two successful groups herself.

Names color coded in blue are viewers who had questions.

Interviews begin promptly at 8 Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, and 5 Pacific.

MODERATOR: Good evening, everyone! I'm glad you could join us tonight to hear Jill Rubalcaba discuss with us how to create successful critique groups. Jill is the author of four children's books and numerous stories and articles. Jill has also recognized the writer's critical need for support and encouragement that is often lacking in today's publishing world. To meet that need, she has started two successful critique groups. She'll be sharing her expertise in this area with us tonight. Welcome Jill!

Jill: Hi, everyone! Thanks for having me here tonight.

MODERATOR: Jill, how did you begin writing, and did you always want to be a writer?

Jill: Actually I started out as a mathematician. I was working as a design engineer at Raytheon on the Patriot missile, teaching differential equations at Northeastern and getting my masters in Stochastic Theory when I got pregnant. BOY was I sick. I had to quit everything. Then after my daughter was born I decided I didn't want to go back to work, so I tried to figure out what to do. I've always been a voracious reader, and so writing naturally followed.

MODERATOR: What an unusual career path! Jill, you write both fiction and nonfiction, books and short material. Was that by design, or would you prefer to specialize?

Jill: I like to work on more than one thing at a time, but it is difficult for me to do two of the same thing at the same time. I couldn't write two novels at once, but I can write a novel while working on a nonfiction piece, so when the well runs dry on one, I move to the other.

MODERATOR: Now, on to the topic for tonight: "Creating Successful Critique Groups." For the purposes of our discussion tonight, Jill, please define "critique group".

Jill: It can be many things for many people, but for me it's a place to bring work in progress and get help making it the best it can be.

MODERATOR: Were critique groups instrumental in helping you get published?

Jill: I had published one book when I started my first critique group, so no, not for me, but I have had the pleasure of seeing lots of first books in the groups I've been in.

Pam: How did you find your very first critique group? Or did you start it yourself?

Jill: I started it myself because the groups that were available were closed to new members. I got an SCBWI listing of area members and called everyone on the list. A few were interested and it grew from there.

MODERATOR: Why are critique groups more important than ever?

Jill: Today's editors haven't the time to help writers develop their craft like they did years ago. In a writing group you can learn and grow.

MODERATOR: Let's discuss the components of a good critique group. First, is there an optimal size?

Jill: I've been in all sizes, but I've found if it's too large then you don't get to read every week and that's a must. Part of the benefit of a writer's group is to keep you working, and if you only read once a month, or less, you may only write that much. So I have found that around six, give or take, works best.

Tyrone: There are seven people in my writers' group, but we only meet for two hours and so some of us don't ever get to talk or get good critiques. Is our group too big? No one really wants to leave though.

Jill: I'm wondering why you don't get to read every week? Maybe you should limit the amount of time each person has. We tend to size up the amount of material to be covered when we start each week and then proceed accordingly.... if four of us have to read, we try to stick to a half hour each. In two hours you should be able to accommodate seven people.

MODERATOR: Should you belong to a critique group that only writes for children (or your particular genre)?

Jill: Again, I've been in both. I like having a variety of work in that I like to write a variety of things, but in terms of "knowing the markets" it's good to be specialized. In the groups where it has been all children's writers, the market tips have always led to publication. Marketing is HUGE in terms of time, and the more heads researching the better. I might hear a story that I know a particular editor wants or someone in my group may say, "Hey! So and so would love that..." We've had a number of sales because of that. Whereas if your group is hugely diverse, the market research is somewhat watered down.

MODERATOR: What about location--should critique groups meet in people's homes or a neutral place? And why?

Jill: The important thing is to design a group that suits you. I personally don't like to meet in people's homes because I think they feel the need to clean, serve food and coffee, etc. but I know others who like the home-iness of meeting where they live. We meet at the local library. The problem is we have to sneak food in!

Janice: I agreed to have our critique group meet in my home, but I can't get people to leave at nine when it's supposed to be over. I guess it's a good problem in a way, but my kids and husband get annoyed when people are still here at l0 or later. How can I tactfully tell people to go home? They're my friends and I don't want them to feel unwelcome.

Jill: That's another problem when you meet at a home. The person is kind of stuck. I guess you would have to forget tact and tell them outright that as much as you love having them, when the meeting is over they have to leave. Or you could pretend you have to go somewhere!

MODERATOR: How is a critique group actually started and organized?

Jill: I've seen groups started by running an ad in the free advertisers. I've seen them started by people posting notices in libraries and bookstores. One of my groups was the result of a talk I gave at a library. Everyone stayed afterward and wanted to get together on a weekly basis. They were a wonderful group of talented writers and I miss them! (I moved.) As far as getting organized--there are as many ways to organize as there are groups. I think it's best to be flexible and sort of mold the group to the needs of the members.

MODERATOR: How are the meetings run--a general guideline?

Jill: I've found most groups start out with some chitchat. Then you get down to business. I like it when everyone brings a copy of their work for all the members so we can mark them up. Plus reading is different than listening, and when you listen only you miss stuff. When the person is finished reading we all discuss the work. It's always best if the creator sits back and just listens. Sometimes the discussion can get quite animated. You can learn so much when you listen to folks discuss what you just read. Did you get across what you intended? Is the character believable? The plot convincing? Sometimes market suggestions will come from someone in the group.

MODERATOR: What makes a good group member?

Jill: Kindness!!!! Actually, you have to be dedicated. If you expect to give thoughtful criticism to someone's novel, then you must be there to hear it all, and you must care about that person's work enough to want them to succeed, and therefore want them to write the best they can. You also have to be sure that you don't NOT say something for fear of hurting their feelings. That's just a disservice to the writer.

MODERATOR: Excellent points to think about! Are there "rules" that members should agree to if they want to be members?

Jill: I hate authority! I've been in groups with really strong leaders who pound home the rules. I'm afraid I don't last long in those groups. However, if you don't have rules, you have to be prepared to tolerate tangents, but I find that easier to put up with than some boss telling me what to do and when to do it. (Can you tell I have a problem with authority?)

MODERATOR: Yes! :) Can you share some "memorable " moments from your groups (both high and low points)?

Jill: A book contract is always the best! When someone sells a book that you have invested in by listening to and critiquing, it is time to celebrate! A good friend of mine who was in my very first critique group went on to be a finalist for the national book award, and then to win the following year. That was probably the most exciting. She started in our group as an unpublished author and because of a market tip in the Children's Writer Newsletter she found her editor, Karen Grove at Harcourt and three books later she's a National Book Award winner. Points don't get much higher than that! Low points are when you have to ask a member to leave the group. I've had destructive members who don't write, only trash everyone else's writing and obviously don't care about improving themselves.

MODERATOR: Then what kind of group dynamics should be fostered?

Jill: I think encouragement is VERY important. This business is so filled with rejection. you need a support group to hold your hand those days you want to quit.

MODERATOR: On the other hand, what kind of group dynamics should be avoided, if any?

Jill: Defensiveness is a HUGE waste of time. Someone will criticize something and the writer will spend twenty minutes defending it. Well, if it didn't work for that reader it didn't. That doesn't mean the writer has to change a word, but to argue about it should be discouraged.

MODERATOR: How does one give advice or criticism so that it's constructive?

Jill: That's tough. I do think that if you really care about the person and your desire is to help them make their work the best it can be that it shows through, even if what you are saying is that the whole thing stinks.

MODERATOR: How can you tell if the criticism you receive is valid, since we won't always agree with the critique?

Jill: Well, they are all valid. But are they right for your work? I would say that if you take 10% you are taking a lot. The way I tell if it's right for me is if it feels right. Does it strike a chord? Is it something that maybe when you were working on it you thought it was 'off' somehow, and they recognized it? Then if only one person feels that way maybe you needn't look at what is said, but if everyone in the group is agreeing with someone's critique you should seriously consider it. You may still decide, no, that's not right for my work, but you have given it thought. And that examination will always bring improvement to your work.

MODERATOR: Great points to ponder! Jill, what about members who are overly harsh and critical?

Jill: I don't believe in not speaking up. If you think someone is being too critical ask them about it. The writers group is no place to keep all this to yourself. Maybe they don't realize they are being harsh, and maybe they can tone it down. I think that you have to be careful with many writers. Presenting your work is allowing yourself to be vulnerable, and then to have someone stick a knife in and twist it...ouch! There are enough editors out there that do that! At the same time it is important to the writer to hear everything.. Otherwise how can they improve? I would much rather have people rip my work apart than say nothing. I go to group to find ways to make my work better. Even though it's nice to hear when something works, I find it more productive when I go home with something to work on.

Cindy: I don't think my writer friends are too critical, but I still have trouble listening to their advice. This is really stupid, but half the time I leave my critique group and go home and cry. Am I too thin-skinned???? If I can't handle something like this, how will I ever handle an editor's comments? Can you help???

Jill: It's okay to go home and cry. The important thing is that you keep going back. If you think that you cry when your group jumps on you---just wait until the critics rip you apart publicly. Cry, get it out... that's fine. Just keep going back if you feel that you are improving and learning.

MODERATOR: What about online critique groups where critiquing is done through e-mail? Are these useful?

Jill: I have this wonderful e-friend in California (I live in Connecticut) and we share our work via e-mail. It's wonderful to have such immediate help. If you can hook up with someone via e-mail (or a group) I think it can be almost as rewarding as being in the flesh. Of course, there's the lack of chocolate.

MODERATOR: A major shortcoming!!! Is it better if an organization (like SCBWI) runs the group, or should everyone take turns running it?

Jill: We don't have a person `running' the group, sort of democracy in action. However, if you have something like SCBWI you have a professionalism right off the bat that is helpful.

MODERATOR: Besides critiquing, what other benefits do you get from a writer's group?

Jill: There is the emotional support. As I said before there is endless rejection in this business. Sometimes it can get you down and you feel like quitting. That's when you can have a `writing intervention' and everyone can bolster that person who is in the dumps. Marketing is something that takes as much time as writing in the beginning. With everyone in the group researching Publisher's Weekly, Market News, and on-line sources, you cover a lot more ground than you can on your own. Plus one person can bring their particular interest to the group. Right now we have one guy who is really into the e-publishing and he brings all sorts of stuff to group that I would never have found on my own. I know that one day that will all be useful.

Also, you can share materials. Some of my favorite books on writing such as Gary Provost's Make Your Words Work and The Writer's Journey have come from recommendations from people in my group. Or they open my eyes to something I may not have picked up on my own to read. Or they themselves write in a genre that brings a richness to my own writing. For example, there was a woman in one of my writer's groups who wrote romance. Now I stink at writing a love scene. I learned so much listening to how she wrote. Exposure is essential for a writer. You never know when you'll use it.

Weaver: What is a good size for a group?

Jill: You have to be careful not to get too big. You want to be reading as often as possible so that the group works like a deadline. I know that I have to have a chapter every week for my group. If the group were too large I might only need a chapter every two weeks, or month. And knowing me, that's all I'd write. Then again you don't want the group so small that you don't get enough feedback on what you do read. I find that 5-8 is an optimum number, assuming everyone shows every meeting.

hbauthor: Jill, how often does your current group meet?

Jill: We meet every two weeks. We used to meet every week and I liked that better.

buffie: I live in a rural area and haven't been able to find a good critique or writing group. What do you suggest about starting one?

Jill: I think starting your own is the BEST! Because then you can design it the way you like it. As I said before I HATE rules... so we have a very flexible loose group. If someone has an idea for a format for the group we try it on for size. For example, we tried bringing in writing we found that was exceptional and discussing why it worked (one page or one paragraph). We tried a group writing project. We tried writing exercises (yuck, I stink at those). You can have a meeting at your local library about writing and you will find folks willing to get together regularly from that, I bet.

Maudy: What are your thoughts about e-mailing manuscripts before the group meets?

Jill: Wow! Great idea! That would give everyone time to really think over the work. I can hear one of our members saying "that's too much like homework." Different strokes, you know? You've got to find what works best for you!

laurie1030: How do you figure out in advance whether everyone in a group is on approximately the same writing level as everyone else?

Jill: Oh, they never are, but that's just fine. It's like playing tennis. If you want to get better, you have to play with someone better than you are.

DebO: I've sent work out to people to be critiqued before. But the idea of having my work read and critiqued face-to-face gives me the willies. Have you or anyone you know gone through this? How do you/they deal with it?

Jill: I remember shaking so hard I wasn't sure I could follow the print on the page when I read the first time in a group. It IS scary. But after awhile you get to really love everyone in your group and you get less and less nervous, until eventually you look forward to going and getting their feedback. When I move.. and I move a fair amount...the thing I dread is losing my writing group. They become so close, because you have shared your most intimate work with them.

smoranville: How does one gracefully and positively terminate writer support group relationships that just aren't working? Everybody is well intentioned and committed, but perhaps the writers just aren't well matched . . . How does one end the relationship positively???

Jill: Smoranville, do you want to leave or is the group disbanding, or do you have to ask a member to leave?

smoranville: I want to leave.

Jill: Can I ask why you want to leave?

smoranville: The people in the group spend too much time making cookies and looking at it as a social event. I just don't have time for that!

Jill: Ah, I completely understand your frustration... I also like to get down to business. I get so antsy when the chitchat goes on too long. If I were you I would be completely honest, say as much as you enjoy them, you really don't have the time.

smoranville: But all these people are nice and have been truly helpful to me, and I don't want to let them down.

Jill: Try saying you are looking for a group that views writing more as a business.

smoranville: "More as a business": what a nice positive, neutral expression. Thank you!

Jill: Depending on your needs, there is absolutely nothing wrong with writers groups that are mostly social. After all, writing is very isolating, and we need other people. But if your needs aren't in sync with theirs, tell them exactly what you said to me... it sounds very gracious to me!

DebO: About how much time weekly or monthly would you say you spend critiquing others' work?

Jill: I spend a great deal of time, the reason being that lots of people send me their work and I love to edit. The group that I'm in only takes the two hours every other week, but every group I have ever been in still has members who send me stuff via snail mail. And then there's the folks who find out you write and "could they send something?" As long as I'm not too swamped I usually say yes.

bernie: When I get something from one of my buddies I read the story first and then go back to edit or see what I feel doesn't work; is that the proper way to critique?

Jill: I think that's the best way to critique because you know the story as a whole, and then you can go back and look at things more critically. I may put a check next to something as I make the first pass to remind myself that I should take a closer look when I come back.

bernie: Where do you hold meetings? Do you rotate homes, use the library? My house is like a circus.

Jill: I've always gone to a public place, such as the library or the senior center.

Bernadette: Okay, Jill and Kristi, how would we go about getting a pro-writer in our writing group. If it's chocolate you want, I know the perfect place! LOL

Jill: If you stick with it, you will be the pro-writer. The first group I started there were no books published (I had a brand new contract, but no book). Seven years later we had 26 books among us.

MODERATOR: Wow, that's impressive! But if you only take about l0% of the advice you're given in critiques, is it really worth all the meeting time and critiquing time to do it?

Jill: Yes!!! 10% is an enormous amount. You would be surprised at what 10% can do to your whole writing work. Let's say that on a given day one person says, "You know, Jill, you use far too many adverbs" and out of all the comments that's the only one I take to heart. So now I start examining my future work. Lo and behold, the whole thing gains strength because of that one comment.

menucha: I write for Jewish kids, and have a hard time finding anyone else who also does. Is it good enough to just have a few friends to contact?

Jill: There are several Jewish publishers out there so at least you have great markets. But as far as reading, you don't have to be Jewish to read work directed at Jewish kids. You can still tell the writer whether or not the character seems three dimensional, or whether there's awkward phrasing, or if the plot needs conflict, etc.

Maudy: Do you have a suggested length of time for the meetings?

Jill: I'm pretty spent after three hours. You start not to `hear' anymore, but I'm sure others have more stamina. The one group that met at the senior center was all retired folks except for a few of us, some well into their eighties. They met from 8-1 and then had lunch afterward. I was pooped and yet they didn't seem at all tired.

bernie: After attending a conference near here in April I know there must be writers around my area; would the library and local papers be a good place to post a notice for starting a group?

Jill: The group in Florida had a running ad in the paper, but I've always found my groups through the local library.

LadyChiaroscuro: I've learned to watch my work for author intrusion, echoes, and varying sentence structure and length, because I've written for a while. However, I am teaching a new workshop on starting critique groups in the fall. I wonder if there is a book or outline somewhere to help a brand new group of writing buddies find a guideline of what to look for in each other's work.

Jill: SCBWI offers an article on critique groups and Elizabeth Berg's latest book Escaping into the Open has a chapter on groups, but basically if you have readers, you have critiquers. I think everyone has to find their own comfort zone. What one writer loves for a group another may find intolerable.

MODERATOR: I'm sorry to have to stop now, but our time with Jill is up. (Do stay tuned for an important announcement in a moment, folks.) Thank you so much, Jill, for sharing such practical tips and advice on how to create our own successful critique groups. They're so important to us as writers!

Jill: I really enjoyed myself. May you all find great places to share your work and to grow and to learn--and to celebrate your contracts!

MODERATOR: Thank you, Jill! OK, BIG ANNOUNCEMENT FOR NEXT WEEK!!! Next week we will be opening our new, improved Long Ridge Writers Group web site. This is our "sister school," so to speak, which offers courses for adult writers. Beginning next week I will moderate interviews both here and in the Long Ridge chat room. I will alternate Thursday nights. You are all most welcome to join me there next week at our regularly scheduled time. (Details about where to go will be sent to all of you on my weekly update list.) But for now, the interview on July 13, 2000 on "Creative Journaling" with Valerie Harms will be located at http://www.longridgewritersgroup.com You won't find the chat room open and available until next week, however. I will also announce some regular Open Forums I intend to have each week at both sites.

For next week's interview, Valerie Harms is the author of eight distinguished books in various genres. Also, for over 20 years, she has taught the Intensive Journal method, a psychological self-help tool. How can journaling change your writing life? How can love and loss feed your creativity? Come hear Valerie Harms discuss how to use journaling to work through the anxiety and confusion of change to find hidden writing potential in our past history, relationships, career, health, unusual events, and dreams.

Look for more information coming your way next week! And now, good night, everyone!

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