Instititute of Children's Literature

Rx for Writers

Transcripts

"Poetry That Pops Off the Page" with Jill Esbaum

Thursday, January 31, 2002

Moderator: is Kristi Holl, Web Editor for the Institute's web site. Kristi is author of 24 juvenile novels and 150+ articles and has taught writing at the Institute of Children's Literature for l5 years.

Jill is Jill Esbaum, a successful poet who has marketed poems to Cricket, Cicada, Ladybug, Babybug, Humpty Dumpty, and Turtle. Another poem, "A New View," is included in Philomel's I invited A Dragon to Dinner (And Other Poems to Make You Laugh Out Loud), due out in April, 2002.

Names color coded in blue are audience members who had questions.

Interviews are scheduled for Thursday evenings: 8 Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, and 5 Pacific.

Moderator: Good evening, everyone! Welcome to tonight's interview. I'm your moderator, Kristi Holl, and I'm pleased to have Jill Esbaum with us. Jill has been very successful selling her poetry to such quality magazines as Cricket, Cicada, Ladybug, Babybug, Humpty Dumpty, and Turtle. Editors DO buy poetry, but it takes special knowledge and skills to write a successful poem. Jill will be sharing some of her expertise with us tonight. Welcome, Jill!

Jill: Thanks, Kristi! I'm excited to be here.

Moderator: How did you get started writing children's poetry?

Jill: As a kid, I loved poetry. Maybe because my dad was a closet poet (still is). On camping trips, we'd all be lying in our sleeping bags, trying to fall asleep and he'd start coming up with silly rhymes that kept my brother and me awake (and giggling) far into the night (my poor Mom!). I first started fiddling with poetry four years ago - mainly as an avoidance tactic, I'm embarrassed to admit; something to do when I got stuck on a prose project. I've always had a pretty good sense of rhythm (anyone who's seen me in an aerobics class would be ROFL right now), so I suppose the reason I didn't take poetry writing seriously was that it felt too much like playing. But I was having so much (guilty) fun, I finally made a deal with myself: If I could get a poem accepted by a major children's magazine, I'd give poetry more time and study. Now my "poetry moods" come in waves - everything zings along for a couple of weeks, and then, suddenly every line I write sounds clunky, and I know it's time to switch to something else for a while. Consequently, my poetry submissions are pretty irregular.

Moderator: What are some things to consider when writing a poem?

Jill: First of all, keep in mind that poetry should make you feel something, elicit an emotional reaction of some kind. I love the Jonathon Holden quote on my bulletin board: "Poetry should give shape, in a concise and meaningful way, to what our lives feel like." So, what is it you feel? What is it you want to say? Write that in a sentence or fragment before you begin. You can say ANYthing with poetry, from any point of view. Then, consider the following: 1) Who is my audience? 2) What voice will I use? 3) What mood am I going for? 4) How will I arrange the poem on the page? 5) Will I use free verse or rhyme? 6) If rhyme, what rhythm will I use? What end-rhyming pattern? Most importantly, don't be in a hurry. I sometimes go for six months without submitting poems anywhere. Have fun. Learn patience. You're speaking to the senses, so take the time to make your poem as "sensitive" as possible.

Moderator: How do I come up with ideas that haven't been done to death?

Jill: Good question, because the more children's poetry you read, the more you begin to feel that everything's already been done! But it hasn't. There's nothing wrong with using an "old" topic IF you can make your reader feel something in a new way. One of my published poems was about a child turning cartwheels in the snow. I remember feeling that snow had been done to death. But the idea of a girl who's so excited about fresh snow that she can do cartwheels in a snowsuit and boots appealed to me, and the editor, too, I guess. Another poem awaiting publication tells of a girl practicing ballet in a barn - during a thunderstorm for an audience of cats. And another features a teen-aged boy whose greatest desire is to travel the country as an Elvis impersonator. The point is, look for something different, unique. Look for ideas in everything you see, do, feel. Remember what it was like to be a kid. Did you feel a special connection to nature? Remember the things you loved. The things you loathed. Things you found frustrating, funny, embarrassing, touching. Imagine. Ask yourself "what if?"

Moderator: I'm not sure where to start. What are some methods for getting something on paper?

Jill: Oh, yikes. Another long answer, I'm afraid. There's a Robert Frost quote I like: "A poem is an idea caught in the act of dawning." When an idea "dawns" on you, WRITE IT DOWN. Even if it's only an image that struck you, or a fleeting emotion. There are two brainstorming techniques I use when writing poetry. One is clustering and the other I call finger painting (okay, I just made that up for lack of a more technical term). For clustering, you need a general idea of what you want to write about. Let's take snow (groan). Write SNOW in the middle of a blank page. Circle it. Now, around that, write whatever words spring to mind in association with snow. Draw lines from the SNOW circle to the outer words, likes spokes on a wheel. Maybe each of those descriptive words will lead to spin-off spokes to describe THEM. This game of word association and mental leaps will either drive you completely crazy or give you some great ideas.

For finger painting, I close my eyes and type whatever I think or see without punctuation or stops or rhyme or reason (kind of like I'm doing now. HA!) Believe it or not, out of this gobbledygook can come some just-right phrases or images you'll want to keep. It's also a wonderful way to give your family the impression that you're hard at work. Also, experiment with different rhyming patterns. Different rhythms. Different moods and voices. Different openings and endings. Then REVISE, REVISE, REVISE!

Moderator: Which children's poets would you suggest studying?

Jill: All of them! Go to the library and check out an armload of children's poetry collections. Repeatedly. Read poems out loud to a child or your cat or the fly on the wall. What makes you want to read certain poems again and again? Who are your favorite poets? Are you drawn to rhyming poems or free verse? Do you like humor or something more thoughtful? What kind of voice appeals to you? Do you like character- or plot-driven poems? Limericks or haiku? A bouncy rhythm or a lullaby mood? You'll soon discover which types of poems, voices, rhythms, and topics appeal to you.

Moderator: How do you punctuate a poem?

Jill: Usually, you punctuate a poem the same way you'd punctuate prose. However, you'll find free verse poems without any punctuation at all, and if you feel that style suits your poem, go ahead and experiment. Technically, anything can be called a poem. Emily Dickinson said: "If I feel physically as if the top of my head were taken off, I know that is poetry." Guess that rules out my grocery list.

Moderator: Should I double-space a poetry submission?

Jill: No. Arrange your poems exactly as you'd like to see it on the published page.

lynnmeloni: What is free verse?

Jill: Robert Frost called his act of writing poetry "sentencing." And that, very basically, is what free verse is. There's no set meter. No rules about line length. It's all about the sound of the language you use; how you convey mood and feeling; how you establish rhythm by your word choice, and even the visual arrangement of the lines on the page. White space is very important. Free verse begs to be read slowly (just try reading one fast). Each line may present a separate image, and end words get special emphasis. Sound effects work especially well in free verse, too.

ginger_katt: Is there any market at all for free verse?

Jill: Yes, ginger, but in my experience, magazines aimed at middle-grade and older readers are the most receptive.

Moderator: How can I make my poems stand out?

Jill: Your words should be doing double - or even triple - duty. Besides fitting into the established rhythm pattern (stresses/beats), each word has to be essential to telling your poem's "story." If it's at the end of a line, it also has to fit the rhyme scheme perfectly (if it's a rhyming poem). Strive to surprise and delight your reader. Use both concrete and abstract (speak more to the senses) words. Show kids that words are more than their meaning; that there's also a musical quality to the language. Give your poems a rhythm that matches their subject. For example, try using a swinging, wave-like beat for a poem that takes place on the water; a gentle patter for a rain poem; a heavy bass-drum cadence for a parade poem. While it is important to sustain a poem's stresses/beats, you can alternate its rhythm pattern to keep things interesting. The BEST test to know if your poem is working is to have someone else read it aloud. If they stumble, you'll know you've got work to do.

Moderator: Why do some lines run into the next?

Jill: This is called enjambment, and it's a poet's way of giving the last word of a line special emphasis, of giving the next word more emphasis (and thought) or of trying to establish a certain rhythm. It's supposed to heighten tension which it certainly does for me. I'm not crazy about it. I suppose that means I should study it more!

teenteach: Should we practice writing poetry or just write it?

Jill: Practice really does make perfect -- or at least something an editor might want to buy. Revision is one of the most important steps to writing good poetry.

zoie: Are poems and stories that rhyme the same thing?

Jill: Not exactly. Easy-to-read shouldn't be mistaken for easy-to-write. There's a reason rhyming picture books are fun to read. Some talented person has worked HARD to make those words flow so "effortlessly." To sell, a rhyming picture book has to have more than clever lines. Those lines must tell an irresistible story. They must have numerous scene change possibilities. Each word within the story has to be essential to its telling. Each line has to move the story forward. The rhythm can't be boring, and the rhyme has to be PERFECT. Quite a challenge! If you are determined to tackle a rhyming picture book, study them (excluding those written by celebrities) carefully first.

ginger_katt: Do you have a website or anything where we could read a few of your poems?

Jill: No. And only a few of my poems have been published. More than a dozen are still awaiting publication. I have one in the June 2000 Cricket, one in the December 2000 Turtle, and the December 2001 Ladybug that you could find in a library, maybe.

Ducky: Do you write what you are in the mood to write or what you think a specific market is looking for?

Jill: Definitely what I'm in the mood to write, Ducky! If I tried to write to the market I wouldn't feel very inspired.

KristaE: Are there word limits for different ages?

Jill: Not really word limits, exactly, Krista. More like line limits. Each magazine has their own guidelines. Some may want no more than 16 lines, for instance, and some may say no more than one page.

Ducky: What can you tell us about writing humor in poems?

Jill: I can tell you that it sells better than anything else, in my experience. What editor wouldn't love to open up an envelope and find something that makes her laugh out loud?

Ducky: Do you have any special tips for writing for the youngest markets such as Babybug?

Jill: Writing poems for Babybug is a special challenge, and I really have to shift my way of thinking to write for them. You need to stick to basic toddler-world ideas, nothing abstract or too far from home. But I've sold them 5, and if I can do it, so can you! I wrote about a girl dancing around the kitchen on her daddy's feet, kids jumping in fall leaves, waddling ducks, etc. Go to your public library (if they carry Babybug) and study back issues. They're very cute.

rrranch36: What is meant by one page? Is that one magazine page or one manuscript page?

Jill: One manuscript page.

connieh: Do we always have to send out five at once to an editor?

Jill: No, Connie. I try not to send five, although most magazines will take that many. I usually send from one to three. Keep in mind that your weakest work has a way of diluting your best work.

Tweaker: Do you find you tend to rewrite your poetry more than you rewrite your fiction?

Jill: Hi, Tweaker! No, I rewrite everything! Again and again and again. But poetry HAS to have that elusive quality of "mood." So besides making sure each word fits, I want to make sure the entire poem captures whatever mood I'm trying to capture.

mbailey: Are there any subjects that would be totally rejected. Like a poem on stinky feet?

Jill: No, mbailey. I was at the library last week looking through old Ladybugs (I THINK it was Ladybug), and there was a really funny poem about a kid who had to hurry in from playing in the snow and quickly peel off all his various layers of outerwear as he ran to the bathroom, where he, well, you know. So no, I don't think there's anything that is an automatic reject if it's done in good taste. Or really funny.

jmarbogast: Do you follow magazine's themes for suggested topics?

Jill: Not really. Not for poetry, anyway. If it's a religious magazine, however, and they only want Bible-based poetry, I wouldn't send anything other than that.

Moderator: Which sells better - free verse or rhyming verse?

Jill: That depends on the magazine. Magazines aimed at the youngest readers, like I mentioned before, tend to publish MOSTLY rhyming poetry. Magazines aimed at older readers are more receptive to free verse.

Moderator: Is it okay to mix free verse and rhyming verse in the same poem?

Jill: Sure! I've seen it done quite effectively - as long as there's a reason to shift gears. I've recently tried it myself, but haven't sent it out yet.

Moderator: Is it "cheating" to use a rhyming dictionary?

Jill: Gosh, I hope not! I love my rhyming dictionary, although I don't use it much when I'm brainstorming, since it slows me down. I use it plenty later, though, believe me!

stormy: Do you have any suggestions on how to get better at rhyming?

Jill: Yes, stormy. Read, read, read. Count out stresses and beats.

Ducky: What rhyming dictionary do you have?

Jill: It's a Random House pocket dictionary whose glued pages are falling out constantly.

linny: Can you suggest a web site rhyming dictionary?

Jill: No, I'm sorry, linny. I know I've visited one, but I can't remember where it was.

Tweaker: There are two rhyming dictionaries (at least) on the Internet: www.rhymezone.com and www.rhymer.com.

Moderator: Thanks! Jill, what do you do when the right words just won't come?

Jill: Sometimes it takes months to find an elusive word or phrase. If I'm stuck, I first see if there's a way to rearrange the troublesome line so that it ends with a different word, one that may be easier to rhyme. However, NEVER switch a sentence around to make a rhyme "fit." For example, don't say something absurd like, "In a polka-dot hat did I see a baboon." Say, "I saw a baboon in a polka-dot hat." But try not to settle for the easy rhyme either. Remember, your goal is to surprise and delight. Easy way/say/day/play rhymes just won't do that. Sometimes, the best thing you can do is try to forget it for a while. I work on another poem or manuscript -- or pull weeds in the garden or fold clothes (although I don't find matching up socks particularly inspiring). Carry a notebook in your purse or car. Keep a notebook by your bed. Many times I wake up in the middle of the night with a word I've been searching for. If I don't write it down, it's gone in the morning.

Moderator: What is a mask poem?

Jill: A mask poem, also called a persona poem, is written from an object's point of view, as if the poet WERE that object. For example, if I were writing as a drum: With wooden sticks/they p-pound my middle./I wish that I'd been born a fiddle. See Paul B. Janecsko's DIRTY LAUNDRY PILE (HarperCollins '01) for good examples of mask/persona poems.

Moderator: What's a concrete poem?

Jill: In concrete poems, the words or lines are arranged in a manner that reflects the poem's meaning in some way. For instance, how about a poem, written in a zigzag pattern, about a girl whose mother has a thing for rickrack and insists on sewing it to all the girl's clothes? (Hey, I might try that one!) Or a poem about fishing shaped like a fish? It's fun to experiment with concrete poems, although sometimes frustrating to do on a computer. I've only written one. But it sold to Cricket, so I'd really like to try more of these. See another of Paul B. Janeczko's compilations, A POKE IN THE I (Candlewick '01) for lots of examples.

Moderator: Can you recommend poetry web sites?

Jill: Some I enjoy are: poetry4kids.com, gigglepoetry.com, charlesghigna.com, kristinegeorge.com. You can find enough poetry websites to keep you busy for days by going to www.google.com and typing in the keywords Children's Poetry.

Caroline: What are some reputable poetry contests?

Jill: There are lots of poetry contests advertised in writer's magazines, but I've never found any (yet) who offer Children's Poetry as a category. There must be something out there, but I haven't found it.

Heidi: Byline Magazine has many writing contests, and some for children's poetry.

Moderator: Thanks, Heidi! Jill, what are the most common beginner mistakes?

Jill: In free verse, I suppose there might be problems with line breaks that make no sense. Or maybe the poem is too literary to be understood by mortal man, or kids, anyway. In rhyming poems, the things that set my teeth on edge are: 1) Imperfect beat/rhythm (a poem's stresses and pauses) - the beat establishes tone and meaning, 2) Using near rhyme in a place where perfect rhyme is called for. Rain and again do not rhyme (unless you're Eliza Doolittle). Neither do town and around. 3) Misusing a word's natural stress. 4) Use of clichés.

Moderator: How do you know when a poem is ready to send off?

Jill: Sooner or later, a poem reaches the point where it just feels right. If there's a little niggling voice in the back of your mind telling you a poem isn't quite ready, listen to it. Don't settle for "good enough." Put yourself in an editor's place. If she's been sitting there reading ho-hum, good-enough poetry for hours, yours should say, "Hey! Wake up! Here's something new!" Finding fresh similes and metaphors is always fun for an editor. NEVER send out a poem on the day it's finished. Wait at least a week, preferably MUCH longer. There's nothing like the sinking feeling of coming up with the "perfect" word for your poem -- and ack! -- it's already in the mail.

Moderator: When submitting poetry, do you need to send a cover letter?

Jill: I do. Others don't. If you do, keep it short and relevant. Has your poetry been accepted/published elsewhere? Say so. If not, don't worry about it. Never shoot yourself in the foot by saying something like, "I wrote this poem for my grandson's birthday, and my friends said I should try to have it published. It's my very first one, yadda, yadda, yadda." Better no cover letter at all than a bad one.

Moderator: Was it difficult to sell your first poem?

Jill: No, unfortunately. The first children's poem I submitted was accepted on its first time out by Cricket. This gave me the impression that selling children's poetry was a snap. Ha! The ensuing string of rejections snapped me back to reality in a hurry.

Moderator: What if a magazine decides to "hold" a poem with no promise of publication?

Jill: This happens frequently with a certain magazine group. After they held mine for a year, I wrote a polite note asking if my poem had been scheduled for publication. They wrote back almost immediately asking to hold it for a while longer before deciding. I'd recommend against ultimatums and foot stomping. After all, you're trying to build credits and get your work into the hands of kids. You want editors to look forward to working with you--not cringe at the sight of your name on an envelope. If a polite note gets no response, try again. If, after three months or so, you still hear nothing, you could pull your poem from consideration, if you feel strongly about it.

Moderator: Can I submit my poems to more than one magazine simultaneously?

Jill: I don't, as a matter of courtesy to the editor. On the off-off chance that two editors accepted the same poem, things could get sticky. I'd like to stay on good terms with editors who have bought my work in the past -- there aren't that many of them!

Moderator: How do you know when to stop sending out a poem?

Jill: Make up a mailing list for each poem. Don't get flustered by one rejection. But after three, you should wonder if that poem might lack sparkle. Pretend someone else wrote it, and take a more critical look. Better yet, take it to a critique group or listen to someone else read it aloud.

jmarbogast: Don't you find that many of the magazines have such distinctively different flavors that a poem may work perfectly for one magazine and not another?

Jill: Definitely. Unfortunately, this makes the market for some poems very limited and if those two or three magazine don't buy that poem, it goes into a drawer. I tell myself that poem could be included in a collection someday.

Joy Acey: Do you ever send a second group of poems to an editor that hasn't responded to your first batch?

Jill: I've never had an editor fail to respond. But if that happened, I'd follow up with a letter about my previous submission first. There's always the chance it got lost. If an editor wants to "hold" one of my poems, with no promise of publication, then yes, I guess I'd send him/her more of my work.

Joy Acey: What were some of your favorite poems when you were a kid?

Jill: Remember "an elephone, who tried to use the telephone?" I think that must have been my favorite since I still remember most of it. I tended to go for nonsense poems then and now. But I like emotional free verse, too.

barbking: Magazines only accept shorter poems; where can I market longer pieces of poetry?

Jill: Cricket and Cicada take poems up to one page in length. I suspect that magazines aimed at younger readers don't take long poetry because of shorter attention spans.

Ducky: Have you tried writing a poetry collection?

Jill: I don't feel that I have enough poems on any one subject to do that yet. Also I have three ideas I've been knocking around. You have to submit lots more poems to a publisher than actually would end up in a finished book, however.

jmarbogast: Have you had luck with limericks or haiku? What is the form for haiku?

Jill: I haven't submitted any limericks yet, but they are very popular with kids, so you should give it a try. Haiku consists mainly of a sensory image written "in the moment." Traditionally, haiku contains 17 syllables arranged in a 5-7-5 pattern, but there are many variations. Writing haiku is fun, and I know that Cricket publishes it occasionally. But it's challenging to write one, for me anyway, that has kid appeal.

rrranch36: Are "tongue twister" poems a hard sell?

Jill: No, not if they're original and well-written.

jayjay: When you send the cover letter - do you list all the places you have been published?

Jill: I don't list all of them, jayjay, just the ones I think might impress an editor I've never worked with before. :)

jmarbogast: Which poems have been the most rewarding to you personally and why?

Jill: The first poem, accepted by Cricket, was also my first acceptance in the children's field, so that one was WONderful. Last year Cricket bought two free verse poems from me, though, which felt very rewarding since they were the first ones I wrote. Free verse is probably my preferred poetry right now. But then, I really enjoy humorous rhyme, too.

zoie: Are magazines hesitant to publish a poem that was just published by another magazine?

Jill: Well, you couldn't send a poem to a second magazine unless the rights for it have reverted to you. And then, as long as the magazines weren't in direct competition, I don't think the second magazine would hesitate to print it, as long as it fit their needs.

jmarbogast: Did you like Dr. Seuss as a kid?

Jill: I loved Horton Hatches an Egg, and still do, but not many of the others made me want to read them again and again. I think I was just a bit too old when they were popular.

MBVoelker: A lot of what you are saying sounds like what I've read about writing picture books. Where's the boundary?

Jill: A magazine poem has one main "scene," whereas a picture book needs many scenes and illustration possibilities.

JAMES55CLINTON: Are there differences between rhyming poetry and song lyrics?

Jill: You can get away with more near rhyme in song lyrics, in my opinion.

Moderator: Could you explain what you mean by stresses/beats.

Jill: Paying close attention to where stresses naturally fall is crucial. In words of two or more syllables, one syllable is naturally stressed more than another. Never expect your reader to put an unnatural emphasis on a non-stressed syllable if the beat doesn't fall there. For example, you wouldn't say: Patsy sprained her elbow/when she tried to play her oboe/as she skipped across Idaho. To keep the beat on track, you'd have to pronounce Idaho I-DUH-ho, which is completely unnatural (and probably wouldn't make you too popular in Idaho, either.) If this is a problem for you, try writing out each line and placing accent marks above the syllables that are, well, accented. How many beats are there per line? This is another area where reading poetry collections is extremely beneficial. Working out the beat of other people's poems will help you with your own.

Moderator: How careful do I have to be about using age-appropriate words?

Jill: Kids appreciate your respecting them enough to use some "adult" words. But don't get carried away. And keep the word choice appropriate to your poem's topic and tone. For example, you wouldn't say: Susie skipped across the lane/circumventing drops of rain... because you wouldn't use "circumventing" in a poem intended for young children. And what older child would give a hoot about Susie skipping across the lane - UNLESS there were an absurd or hilarious ending/punchline coming up. Keep in mind that kids love puns and word play. The poem I sold to Philomel for I INVITED A DRAGON TO DINNER (April '02) is a pun -- and only four lines long. :)

Joyy Acey: Are there craft books on writing children's poetry that you use?

Jill: No, but there are some very good ones written for KIDS about writing poetry. The ones I have are written for adults, unfortunately. I've learned quite a bit about writing children's poetry from the websites I mentioned earlier and spending lots of time studying children's magazines.

KHindhede: Which poem do you like best of the ones you've written?

Jill: My favorite rhyming poem is "Initiation of a Zipper Virgin" (not nearly as racy as it sounds), and my favorite free verse poem is "Monterey Sunset," because I have no idea where it came from!

Moderator: Excellent information! I'm sorry to have to interrupt now because I have a dozen questions left, but we're out of time. Since poetry is not a writing talent I possess myself, I really learned a LOT tonight. Jill, thank you so much for coming and sharing your expertise with us.

Jill: Thanks for inviting me, Kristi. I had a great time!

Moderator: Do come back in two weeks on Valentine's Day when we will have with us Dandi Daley Mackall speaking on "A Look at Writing Your Own Series Fiction." Dandi has published over 300 books, including NINE different series. She is going to talk about how to convince a publisher your idea is worth multiple books, how to write a series proposal, what makes that first book in the series different from stand-alone books, and much more. So if writing your own series appeals to you, you won't want to miss this interview with prolific series writer, Dandi Daley Mackall. And now, good night, everyone!

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