Jan Fields is Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked of our speaker.

Jan Fields: In August, we talked with Paula Morrow about poetry and picture book verse from the EDITOR'S side -- what do editors see. What do editors look for. This month, we're visiting with a poet to look at the same kinds of issues, but from the poet's side. Welcome to the Writer's Retreat, JoAnn Early Macken!

JoAnn Early Macken: Good morning, everyone! I've had my coffee, let the dog out, and made a pot of decaf. I thought I'd add a little more to my introduction. As Jan said, I earned my M.F.A. from the Writing for Children and Young Adults Program at Vermont College of Fine Arts. I focused on poetry when I wrote my thesis (“What Makes a Poem a Poem?”) and gave my graduation lecture (“Yes, You Can! Write Your Own Poem.”) Those two experiences led into the poetry workshops I’ve been presenting in schools since 1999. I also speak to teachers about helping their students write their own poems. Now I teach part time (mostly creative writing courses) in the English Department at Mount Mary College in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. This semester, (lucky me!), I’m teaching Writing Poetry for Children and Young Adults. I’ll begin a new class on writing picture books at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee School of Continuing Education in two weeks. My poems have been published in several children’s magazines and an anthology. For the past few years, I’ve focused more on writing picture books (mostly in rhyme), but I’m happy to say that lately poetry has been on my mind much more and pouring out of my pen again. I missed it!

Jan Fields: Excellent. I'm so glad you're here and properly coffee'd. I'm looking forward to your input, I'll even slip in a couple questions of my own.

JoAnn Early Macken: Thanks for inviting me.

mmmgood: Ms. Macken, do you think children have a form preference? Are there poetry forms you tend to keep returning to when writing for young children?

JoAnn Early Macken: I love writing in rhyme, so I return to it often, mostly in couplets and quatrains. I think the long lives of nursery rhymes are evidence of children's affection for rhyme. Look at the rhyme schemes of some of the better known ones:

aabb
Peter, Peter, Pumpkin Eater
Humpty Dumpty
Pattycake
Baa, Baa, Black Sheep
Simple Simon
The Old Woman in the Shoe

abcb
Little Bo Peep
Little Jack Horner
Jack & Jill
(I just noticed that all three of these have internal rhyme in line 3. Interesting!)

JoAnn Early Macken: Although I don't suggest we should write in a specific form only because an audience prefers it, I think many of us write in rhyming verse because we loved it when we were younger.

mmmgood: Thank you for the sample list of time-tested nursery rhymes. Your way of thinking makes all the sense in the world to me. Even my eyes are smiling right now.

Jan Fields: How does your approach to writing a poem change when you're writing for different age groups? What do you see as the biggest difference between a poem for third graders and one for eight graders -- complexity? subject matter? form?

JoAnn Early Macken: Good questions, Jan! When I begin writing a poem, I'm usually more focused on getting my thoughts on paper than on audience or form. I feel pretty strongly that a poem should say something, so getting the meaning across is important to me. (I do enjoy writing exercises that focus on wordplay, though--especially as a means to finding a subject and understanding what I want to say about it.)

JoAnn Early Macken: After I have my idea down (& sometimes I have to write fast before I lose it!), I think more about the audience. Some topics are obviously more suited to a certain age group. Once I understand the audience, I can think about the form if it hasn't revealed itself yet. Some poems start out more fully formed than others--I can hear complete lines or feel a rhythm or know where the ending lies & just have to find a way to get there. Some poems need more drafts than others, of course. And some poems seem to call for a specific form, which might be appropriate for younger or older readers.

mmmgood: It's encouraging to me to see that you first focus on getting your thoughts on paper, and that it must be quick ... or it's gone. At times, a poem-in-full will come to me in the shower or at some other inopportune time. It frustrates me how quickly it vanishes, even if I attempt to keep replaying it in my head. I can later get some semblance of the original down, but it is nearly never as pleasing to me as the original.

JoAnn Early Macken: I try to keep paper & pen nearby at all times. I have heard of notebooks that work underwater. (lots of people get ideas in the shower!) I used to have a pen with a built-in flashlight for those middle-of-the-night ideas. Many people use a tape recorder when they drive. I read somewhere that Mary Oliver used to stash notebooks & pens in trees along the route where she walked in case she needed them!

Okami: I honestly feel that for many writers (including me!) just having the courage to start reading and writing poetry is an exercise of faith and passion in and of itself, especially if the few poets they know offhand were Keats, Frost or Shakespeare. Let's be honest, poets of that nature can be hard to understand, let alone appreciate, for a lot of people, even if you don't have reading problems, and that's certainly one problem I've never had (Not technically speaking, anyway.). Have you ever read or known (personally or otherwise) any poets who didn't know they wanted to be poets when they started writing?

JoAnn Early Macken: We all have to start somewhere! My best advice is to find poets whose work you admire & read as much as you can. Spend an afternoon in a library or bookstore & get to know the wide range of voices out there. I definitely have my favorites (lots of them! See "Some of My Favorite Poetry Books" on my web site: http://www.joannmacken.com/events.htm, & I don't enjoy poetry that's too dense or over my head. Have fun exploring!

Okami: I will admit I like the eloquent ways Shakespeare puts things sometimes, especially in his lesser known plays, but a lot of it just feels like its beyond my reach, and I'm not a technically challenged reader, which sometimes people misunderstand about me when we talk about books. Not in a mean way, just those awkward misunderstandings we deal with sometimes. And people think my stories can go over readers heads under 18?

JoAnn Early Macken: We have so many wonderful books to choose from. If I don't enjoy reading something, I give myself permission to return it to the library unfinished. I don't want to miss something I'd enjoy more! If someone tells you your stories are hard to read, ask them for specifics: is it the language, the concepts, or something else? A supportive writing group might be able to help you revise for clarity. Good luck!

mmmgood: Ms. Macken, how do you feel about poetry blogs? If I have a blog to which I post my poetry, am I sort of shooting myself in the foot as far as possible future publication goes?

JoAnn Early Macken: I contribute to a group blog, TeachingAuthors.com, & I do post poems from time to time. I think we each have to find our own balance between protecting our work & sharing it. Many publishers consider a poem posted on a blog published & so will not accept it. I figure the more I write, the more options I have, so I'm trying to write a lot!

mmmgood: It seems as though poetry geared toward pre-teens or teens tends to be "dark," or drama-filled. Is there a market for light verse for this age group?

JoAnn Early Macken: I hope so! Yes, many teen poems (including many written by teens) touch on dark topics, but not all teens are gloomy or dramatic, at least not all the time! Light verse is certainly an antidote!

mmmgood: That's good to hear. However, I can't seem to find a market for light verse for this age. Can you steer me in the right direction?

JoAnn Early Macken:If you have an entire collection with a unifying theme, you could submit it to a book publisher. The best way to find the ideal publisher for your work is through research. Spend some time in a bookstore or library that carries a good selection of children's poetry. Find & list the names of publishing companies that publish poetry similar in style to yours. Check their web sites for submission guidelines & follow them carefully when you submit. You might find the name of an editor on an author's web site or in a dedication or acknowledgment. If you are submitting one or a handful of poems, magazines are probably your best bet. You can find listings of children's magazines & their submission guidelines on several web sites, including http://www.smartwriters.com/content/blogcategory/25/18/ and http://kidmagwriters.com/ as well as annual guides like Children's Writer's and Illustrator's Market. SCBWI (Society of Children's Book Writers & Illustrators) publishes an annual Market Guide & also a Magazine Market Guide for members. You are the one who best knows your work, so unless you have an agent, you are the best person to do the research. Good luck!

mmmgood: I don't know if I'm looking in the wrong places, or what. I have the Children's Writer's & Illunstrator's Market, and the Christian Writers' Market Guide. I haven't been able to find anything I think would be a good match for that age group. I guess I need to take the time to go to the bookstores and see what is out there, and take notes.

Jan Fields: I haven't seen a ton of magazines for teens that take poetry not by teens. BUT, do consider looking at adult markets too. I haven't written for any grown-up magazines in a long while but some of the religious/regional magazines took poetry and they actually liked things that are a little young (not little kid young, but teen-ish young). And MANY literary magazines will also take poetry that is geared to YA -- again, those are more often found in the market guides for grown-ups.

mmmgood: I hadn't thought of that. Thanks Jan!

Jan Fields: Always happy to pontificate.

mmmgood: Ms. Macken, do you believe young children prefer rhyming poems, or non-rhyming? What about older children, such as teens or pre-teens?

JoAnn Early Macken: When my sisters & I were growing up, we heard & read & sang rhyming verse--a lot! So my taste for rhyme developed early. But I also enjoy a variety of nonrhyming forms. I think many children of all ages enjoy rhyme--and others of all ages would rather not read it or write it.

seawater: Teeheehee, I loved reading rhymes when I was a child, then stayed far away from it later on, and returned to liking it now that I'm 'others of all ages.' I love reading and writing rhymes now!

Jan Fields: How does the poetry you write find its form? Do you start off knowing what form you're going to use or do you find it grows as the poem grows? Do you ever play with new poetic forms just for fun? I ask because I saw one mentioned on a post at Laura Purdie Salas' blog, from a book she'd read. The poems take a single long word (like lemonade or applesauce) and the poem is built only from words using letters in the long word. The idea sounded like fun even though I don't write a lot of poetry normally. So I wondered if someone who wrote a LOT of poetry (like you) were every entranced by new forms like that.

JoAnn Early Macken: I rarely set out to write a poem in a specific form unless I need it for an assignment from an educational publisher or as an example for teaching. I do play with forms for fun, & I learn something new whenever I do. Sometimes I'll try the same poem in several variations to see what works best.

JoAnn Early Macken: Laura Purdie Salas is a good person to know for poets who write for children. Her web site includes a poetry page (http://www.laurasalas.com/poetry.html) with links to lots of helpful resources, and her blog (http://laurasalas.livejournal.com/) often includes writing exercises and examples like the squeezed poem you mention.

Okami: Thanks for the links, Joanne, this my second year on my new journey as a poet, and I need all the help I can get, as far as understanding the mechanics involved with writing verse.

JoAnn Early Macken: I can recommend two books by Mary Oliver that I think explain the craft of writing poetry clearly: A Poetry Handbook: A Prose Guide to Understanding and Writing Poetry and Rules for the Dance: A Handbook for Writing and Reading Metrical Verse. They both explain meter in a way I can (finally) understand. I use them in many of the classes I teach.

KatieC: I am wondering how you take a truly good rhyming story and make it GREAT! I have a rhyming PB that has been turned down by two houses now. Both times it was held for consideration, but eventually returned with lovely comments. Each time it was GOOD, but it wasn't good enough.

JoAnn Early Macken:

JoAnn Early Macken:

JoAnn Early Macken: Often a publisher has to reject a manuscript because it's similar to one already in the works. Many authors submit their work a dozen times or more before it is accepted. If these two are the only rejections you've received & the responses don't give specific reasons to revise, cross your fingers & send it out again. Good luck!

mmmgood: Ms. Macken, if you could choose only one "must include" piece of advice for writing poetry that will appeal to small children, what would it be?

JoAnn Early Macken: My one piece of advice when writing for children of any age: Don't talk down to them. Kids are smart; they understand more than many people give them credit for. Assume they want to be entertained when they read, not lectured. So give them the benefit of the doubt. Give them a positive reading experience. Give them a good story or poem that speaks to them on their level.

mmmgood: Does most poetry for small children avoid what I call a "pick up" beat in the cadence of the poetry? Just as in music, perhaps you'll have a piece in which most lines begin on the down beat, but some begin on the up beat (aka, a "pick up" beat). For instance:
DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM
DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM
DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM
da'DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM.
Or perhaps even a bit more complicated cadence, such as:
DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM
DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM
DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM
DUM da DUM da DEED'ily DUM.
Would a children's mag editor frown on rhythms such as these?

JoAnn Early Macken: I like your musical notation! In your example, the number of beats is consistent; only the number of syllables changes. A rhythm that is followed too strictly can sound too predictable or singsongy, so a little variation of this kind is usually fine as long as it doesn't disrupt the pattern so much that it jolts the reader out of the poem--unless that's your intention, of course!

ColoradoKate: I've heard how important it is to have a consistent, unforced meter when writing children's poems. But is there such a thing as too much consistency, in a "singsong" way? Are there tricks for avoiding that while still sticking to a smooth meter?

JoAnn Early Macken: The "pick up beat" topic asks a similar question. As I mentioned in that thread, a rhythm that is followed too strictly can sound too predictable or singsongy, so a little variation is usually fine. To my ear, as long as the number of beats per line is consistent, the number of syllables per line can vary a bit.

Jan Fields: Something I've noticed about a lot of children's poetry is that the structure (even when quite long) pften seems to develop a LOT like a haiku. In that, I mean that you'll have some concrete sensory detail, some kind of very specific showing, that is then used to expand to something really larger and more meaningful. For example, I read a poem by Jane Yolen and one of the focal parts of the poem was a wire trash bin in a park and the stuff in it. And she used that image to say something bigger and more emotional, which at the time reminded me of some of the best Japanese haiku that I'd read. A single image that draws emotion from the reader because it symbolized something deeply emotional for the author.

Jan Fields: Anyway, does that sound like a valid idea? In some ways, it reminds me of writing poetry inspired by the painting or a photograph -- concrete image that then becomes almost symbolic in a way. Of course, it's not terribly deep for younger children but I've seen it in so many poems. I read one in the magazine where the specific breakfast made by the mom every morning was described in a lively fun way, but you sensed it was used to represent the whole warmth and giving of family. What do you think of that? Do you ever see anything like that in your own poetry -- the concrete the evokes something deeper?

JoAnn Early Macken: Yes, I agree. Symbolism can create powerful effects in poetry or any other kind of writing. And Jane Yolen (http://janeyolen.com/) is another author everyone who writes for children should know.

JoAnn Early Macken: In my poem "Spring Awakening" (http://www.teachingauthors.com/2010/04/earth-day-national-poetry-month-earth.html), I used violets as a symbol of our endangered environment.

Jan Fields: I really like that poem. I think the use of such concrete imagery/detail is really helpful for young people too. So many of the poems I see by folks hoping to reach publication but not there yet are abstract from beginning to end, which makes the poem very personal and valuable to the WRITER but I tend to find there isn't really a place for the READER to connect to it emotionally.

mmmgood: Ms. Macken, when writing poetry for children, do you tend to stick to the same "rules" as when writing short stories? In other words, is poetry a bit more forgiving when using a word or two that may be a bit over the head of the young reader?

JoAnn Early Macken: I just read an article by Jamie Swenson in the Wisconsin SCBWI newsletter (http://www.scbwi-wi.com/pdf/2011_Summer_Newsletter.pdf, page that advocates the use of "rare words" in picture books. I think it applies to poetry as well. After all, how else will children ever learn new words.

mmmgood: The Great Jan Fields has sometimes warned about being able to decipher the meaning of a "big" word within the context. Perhaps that isn't so important if the story or poem is written for children young enough that they must be read to. Am I looking at this right?

JoAnn Early Macken: Context clues can be all a young reader needs to understand an unfamiliar word. Pictures help, too, of course. Children who are read to can ask the reader to explain, but that can interrupt the flow of a story or poem. On the other hand, it might lead to a good discussion. I suggest using difficult words sparingly and providing hints about their meanings if possible.

mmmgood: Ms. Macken, what most inspires you to write poetry? Do you feel you need inspiration, or are you able to write effectively without "feeliing it?"

JoAnn Early Macken: In high school, I wrote poems full of yearning & self-doubt. (I wish I had saved some of them!) In college, I wrote about my newfound freedom & independence. When our kids were little, I was inspired by the funny & profound things they & their friends did & said. I've always been inspired by nature, family, & relationships. To me, inspiration comes from opening up & paying attention. In the middle (& muddle) of everyday life, I sometimes struggle to stay open enough to allow a poem to appear. On those days, it's definitely harder to put the pen on the paper. But I have lists of ideas & piles of half-finished poems I can always go back to when nothing in front of me looks promising.

mmmgood: Such a creative way of stating this.

JoAnn Early Macken: I thought about inspiration some more yesterday as I walked the dog. I'm lucky to live near Lake Michigan, & I try to get there every day if I can. The sight of the lake--or almost any body of water, really--is a huge source of inspiration to me. Books can also inspire me. Certain books make me want to drop everything and go write. I can think of two off the top of my head: Bronx Masquerade by Nikki Grimes (a novel in verse) & Moon, Have You Met My Mother? by Karla Kuskin. I don't know if the voice just grabs me the right way or what, but both books affect me that way, even after several readings.

mmmgood: It is sometimes difficult for me to determine what I've actually written. A poem? A story in rhyme? Are there criteria to help me determine what I have, in order to market it properly?

JoAnn Early Macken: Length is one good indicator. Almost all picture books are 32 pages, divided into 13 or 14 double-page spreads with a few pages set aside for front and back matter. So a picture book needs at least 13 or 14 scenes for an illustrator to illustrate. The scenes must be varied enough that the illustrations would not all show the same thing. A story with similar scenes might be better for a magazine. A picture book story should be substantial enough that kids would want to read it or hear it over & over. A story with a punchline or surprise ending might be also better for a magazine because once kids learn the ending, they don't need to hear it again.

mmmgood: I never thought of this aspect of it, and frankly, I'm surprised. I guess I feel like maybe the picture book crowd wouldn't care that they already know the ending ... they'd enjoy it over and over anyway. Sort of like the jack-in-the-box toys. They know exactly what's coming, but can't seem to get enough of it. Am I thinking of this wrong?

Jan Fields: It tends to depend. Many magazine stories really DEPEND on the punchline. Your understanding of the whole story changes once you know the punchline. For instance, if the story is a kid trying to hide something from mom and maybe she thinks it's something naughty the child did but at the end it turns out to be a special present for mom. It's a great surprise "awww" ending, but once you've read it...much of the real thrill of the story is gone.

Jan Fields: But in a picture book with a surprise ending, the book doesn't DEPEND upon the ending to be fun. Imagine we're still talking about the kid hiding something from mom. For the story to be lasting, the kid would have to go to outrageous, hysterical, amazing lengths to hide the thing from mom. He wouldn't put it under his bed, he'd stuff it up an elephant's trunk. Something totally giggle-worthy and funny about the whole journey of HIDING...and then in the end, we find out he wasn't hiding something "bad" but something "good." Which is a surprise and a little extra zing...but it wasn't the thing the whole story depended on.

Jan Fields: One example of this in a picture book is THE MONSTER AT THE END OF THIS BOOK. The ending has the "surprise" of discovering that the little blue monster (Grover from Sesame Street) who has been telling you not to turn the page because of the monster really IS the monster at the end of the book. But the repeat readability comes from (1) the funny lengths Grover goes through to try to keep the child from turning the page and (2) knowing something the story character doesn't know.

Okami: What I was trying to ask was, "When does the emotion give way to technique?" How do you link them together so a poem's technically sound without taking away the emotion it needs?

JoAnn Early Macken: I think you are saying you want to preserve the emotion of a first draft while improving the technical aspects of the poem. If so, revision is the key. Revision is always the key!
* Word choice might be the first thing to look at. Could you replace a word with a stronger one? Two words with one?
* What about patterns? Does the rhythm (smooth, bouncy, choppy, etc.) match the feel of the poem? Could you repeat any significant words or lines?
* Does the form enhance the emotion? Can you use, say, line breaks to emphasize key words?
I don't think I've ever written a poem that I considered complete in one draft. I wish I could! But for me, revision is what really makes a poem work.

Okami: As long as you know what to revise in the first place. It's not always flashing in neon lights, even if you set it aside for weeks or even years later.

JoAnn Early Macken: I am a strong believer in writing groups. I can't say enough about how much my dear, knowledgeable, honest but tactful writing friends have helped me over the years. If you are unsure about what to revise, ask for an opinion from a writer you trust!

JoAnn Early Macken: More about revision: I posted a draft of a poem I wrote this morning about revising a poem on our TeachingAuthors.com blog: http://www.teachingauthors.com/2011/09/revising-poem.html.

carolbee: I'm wondering how important consistency is on unstressed beats at the beginning of lines in poems that are in anapestic tetrameter.
da da DUM da da DUM da da DUM da da DUM.
Someone in my critique group suggested that if there are couplets or four lines of this pattern, they should all start the same way, but that it wasn't necessary to have two unstressed beats-- one would be OK. Do you agree with the one unstressed beat, and do you agree if using only one unstressed beat in a stanza that all the lines should begin with one beat?

Or could I have a line beginning with 2 unstressed beats followed by a line with only one? I ask this because I tend to write long, humorous narrative poems where I often have to throw in a "but" or other connective word to be consistent and I feel like that's not good.

JoAnn Early Macken: Without seeing the poem, I have to answer in general terms. It seems to me that slight variations like the kind you describe would be fine. Some readers might not even notice them, and they might even make the poem more interesting.

carolbee: Thank you, JoAnn. I try to follow the rules but sometimes the pure forms seem too narrow. I think it's good to go with how the lines sound together, assuming one has a fairly good ear! I loved your revising poem for its advice and for the variety in its form.

JoAnn Early Macken: Yes! Pay more attention to the logic and flow of the poem than the technicalities of its rhythm. Ask someone to read it aloud and listen. Do they stumble or skip over words? That's your clue to focus on that part. Good luck!

Jan Fields: I'm delighted with all you've shared. Now, before we close, I was hoping you could share a few "must see" online poetry blogs or sites with us. Which ones do you go to again and again? You mentioned Laura Purdie Salas' site (which is super). Any others?

JoAnn Early Macken: I searched through my bookmarks for sites that not only introduce a poet's work but also provide some analysis or guidance for writers. Here are some of my favorites:

Poetry for Children (Sylvia Vardell): http://poetryforchildren.blogspot.com/
Wild Rose Reader (Elaine Magliaro): http://wildrosereader.blogspot.com/
The Miss Rumphius Effect: http://missrumphiuseffect.blogspot.com/
GottaBook (Greg Pincus) Note the links on the left to many more wonderful poets! http://gottabook.blogspot.com/
Kristine O’Connell George (tons of resources!): http://www.kristinegeorge.com
April Halprin Wayland: http://www.aprilwayland.com/poetry/
Joyce Sidman’s Poem Starters: http://www.joycesidman.com/poemstarters.html
What Makes a Good Poem? (compiled by Marilyn Singer): http://marilynsinger.net/onwriting/what-makes-a-good-poem/

Writing with Writers (Scholastic): http://teacher.scholastic.com/writewit/poetry/index.htm
* Jack Prelutsky: http://teacher.scholastic.com/writewit/poetry/jack_home.htm
* Karla Kuskin: http://teacher.scholastic.com/writewit/poetry/karla_home.htm
* Jean Marzollo: http://teacher.scholastic.com/writewit/poetry/jean_home.htm

Interview with J. Patrick Lewis: http://wildrosereader.blogspot.com/2008/04/interview-with-j-patrick-lewis.html
River of Words: http://www.riverofwords.org/index.html#
How to Write a Poem: Tips on Tapping into the Magic of Your Muse: http://poem-making.blogspot.com/
Bob Raczka & Peter H. Reynolds’ Guyku: http://hmhbooks.com/guyku/
The Academy of American Poets: http://www.poets.org/
The Poetry Foundation: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/
Poetry 180: http://www.loc.gov/poetry/180/
Glossary of Poetry Terms: http://www.infoplease.com/spot/pmglossary1.html