Institute Childrens Literature

Rx for Writers

Transcripts

"Picture Book Potpourri" with Jacqueline Briggs Martin

Thursday, October 21, l999

MODERATOR is Kristi Holl, Web Editor for the Institute's web site. Kristi is author of more than twenty juvenile novels and has taught writing at the Institute of Children's Literature for l5 years.

Jackie is Jacqueline Briggs Martin, author of the l999 Caldecott Medal book Snowflake Bentley. This national award is given by the ALA for the "most distinguished picture book of the year." Author of ten additional books, Jackie knows about writing award-winning picture book manuscripts. Her other books include Grandmother Bryant's Pocket (on numerous "best books" lists), Washing the Willow Tree Loon, and the Bizzy Bones series.

Names color coded in blue are audience members who had questions.

Interviews are scheduled for Thursday evenings: 8 Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, and 5 Pacific.

MODERATOR: Good evening, everyone! I'm Kristi Holl, your moderator and the web editor for this site. Tonight I'm especially pleased to have with us Jacqueline Briggs Martin, author of this year's Caldecott medal winner Snowflake Bentley and ten other very well received picture books. Jackie lives in Iowa with her husband, and they are the parents of two grown children. When not writing Jackie enjoys reading, gardening--especially growing tomatoes and chilies--tent camping, and hiking. Her next book, The Lamp, the Ice, and the Boat Called Fish is due out next year from Houghton Mifflin. Welcome, Jackie!

Jackie: Thanks, Kristi. It's good to be with you and other chatters. Next to writing picture books, I like talking about writing picture books.

MODERATOR: Jackie, for some background, how and when did you begin writing?

Jackie: I started writing over twenty years ago when our two children were young and we were reading lots of books. We lived in an isolated farmhouse and would spend hours each day reading books. We enjoyed them so much I decided I would like to try to write books that children and parents, grandparents, etc. could enjoy together.

MODERATOR: Do you have another job now besides writing, and/or a family?

Jackie: For many years I taught preschool and would write in the early morning before our children were up and before I went to my preschool job. Now I do not have another job outside the home, but I am finding there still isn't enought time to write. I actually think finding the time is a matter of being very disciplined and taking time.

MODERATOR: Do you prefer fiction or nonfiction?

Jackie: That's a good question. I like doing both and I think some stories are better suited to one or the other format. For example, when I began Snowflake Bentley I was thinking of doing a fictionalized "day in the life of" based on Wilson Bentley's life. As I worked with the details of his life I decided that I could not make up anything more compelling or more interesting than his life and non-fiction seemed the best format for this story.

christine collier: Do you always write for the same age group or do you write for older children also?

Jackie: All of my books are picture books. But some are more suitable for younger children, such as the Bizzy Bones stories or Good Times on Grandfather Mountain, while others work well with older children. Washing the Willow Tree Loon or Snowflake Bentley can be enjoyed by older children, I think, because they have some scientific information as well as a story. And I'm just finishing a story for maybe second through fourth graders, though actually when I'm writing a story, it's the story that drives me and I don't think about the age of the audience.

Willie Willow Tree: What is the oldest age group for picture books?

Jackie: That's a good question. And I think the answer may be different today than it would have been 10 or 15 years ago. Teachers tell me that picture books are used in schools at the middle school and high school level. The Children's Book Council Web Site has a link called NotJustForChildren because a lot of adults buy picture books--to go with their own interests like quilting, or fishing. The short answer would be maybe up to 8 or 9 but I think that's not quite accurate.

Ducky: Do you have to tell a publisher what age your picture book is for, or can they just figure it out for themselves?

Jackie: I don't tell my publisher what age a book is for. They figure that out for themselves.

Shoeless: Do you do your own illustrations?

Jackie: I wish I could do my own illustrations, but I absolutely cannot draw. And I don't think I'm teachable. I send a manuscript to a publisher. If they accept it they find someone to do the illustrations.

Willie Willow Tree: Can you explain the difference and purpose of fiction and nonfiction formats?

Jackie: That's a good question. And this answer is just my opinion. Someone else might tell you something else. I think the impulse to write--either ficiton or non-fiction--comes from the feeling that "I have something so exciting/interesting to tell the world that I am going to take the months, or sometimes years, that it takes to shape this writing and make it work. With non-fiction what we want to tell is something that really happened, that is so interesting, makes the world so much more interesting, that we want children to know about it... With fiction we have imagined a character or a situation that we think will be interesting, or moving, or amusing to readers and we want to share it with them. I recently read that E.B. White, who wrote Charlotte's Web, once said to a reader, "All I wanted to say in my book, all I ever wanted to say, is that I love the world." Our impulse to write comes from that, I think. Whether we write fiction or non-fiction often depends on whether we have found a good real story, or whether we have made one up. I hope that's helpful.

GreyWolf: If you have a real life story, which is the best way to go, fiction or nonfiction?

Jackie: Another tough question. Sometimes you actually have to write a story--perhaps in fiction, make some changes etc.--see if you like it. If not, do it again, this time stick with the facts. Sometimes you have a real life story--such as my son being afraid of the wind, which can be the beginning of a story but would not be enough for a non-fiction story.

MODERATOR: Before we discuss picture books too specifically, can you give our viewers some differences between picture books and short stories? They're often the same length for the same age group, but can you take a short story and simply market it as a picture book?

Jackie: Picture books are usually not more than 2000 words (though some are longer). They often are centered on one specific problem or situation and are resolved when the problem is resolved. They often have some element of repetition or pattern that moves the story forward to its conclusion. Picture books have no wasted words. Every word must add to the story. I like that about them. But it does make them different from a story not intended for picture book formats. Of course there are picture books written by illustrators, such as Uri Shulevitz or David Shannon where the pictures are an important element of the story. You actually can't understand the story without the pictures. They are wonderful books, but as a writer who doesn't illustrate, I can't do those kinds of books.

MODERATOR: What are some categories of picture books? Can you explain the difference between a picture story (or concept book), an easy-to-read, and a 6-9 book (usually fewer than 2,500 words)?

Jackie: I think there are two broad categories of picture books (and again this is my opinion): books that have a problem to be solved is one. For example in Bedtime for Frances, Frances doesn't want to go to bed. That's the problem. The second kind are lyrical books, such as When I Was Young in the Mountains by Cynthia Rylan, where there is no problem. The narrator is telling us about her childhood with her grandparents. And she chooses details about eating, play, sleeping, and a child's daily life to give us that life. Within those two broad categories there are stories about families--told with humans, or animals, nature stories, gardening stories (I think they are a genre by themselves). There are also folk tales, tall tales, counting books and ABC books. Concept books often fall into the problem category--going to bed, first day of school, younger sibling, etc. Easy-to-read books can be any of these kinds of books but they work with a limited vocabulary, often a prescribed sentence length, and a prescribed word length and the specifics of these prescriptions can vary with publishers. If you want to do easy-to-reads it's a good idea to write publishers and ask for guidelines. Also if you want to write easy-to-reads, read Arnold Lobel, and some of the classic easy-to-reads. Easy-to-reads are hard-to-writes. Story books for six to nines don't have those prescriptions. All they require is a good story. Good examples of recent story books are Marvin of the Great Northwoods (based on a real life event in the writer's father's life), and The Wild Boy by Mordecai Gerstein, based on the "wild boy" of Avengnon. Another good example is The Ghost Ship by Odds Bodkin.

MODERATOR: When writing a short book, is it necessary to fit it to a particular form (32 pages, 48, 64 pages)?

Jackie: Picture books are typically 32 pages, some picture story books may be 48 pages and easy-to reads may be 64 pages. So it is a good idea to keep those lengths in mind as you are writing. It is also a good idea, once you have a draft, to use some paper from your recycle box and make a 32-page, or 48-page or 64-page (depending on what you are writing) dummy. Divide the text and put it on the pages. See how it fits. But do this for yourself. Don't send your dummy to publishers.

Willie Willow Tree: What elements do you feel are in a Classic story?

Jackie: I think the most important thing in any story is that we care about the characters. For that to happen I think the writer has to care about the characters. If the story is about a problem that the character has, it should come to a satisfying resolution. If the story is more lyrical, a telling such as When I Was Young In the Mountains the writer should choose details that will take readers there, that will be meaningful to readers.

SaraJ: What is a picture book dummy?

Jackie: The kind of picture book dummy that I make is easy to make. I take 8 sheets of cheap typing paper, fold them in half and staple them at the fold. That gives me 32 pages. I put the title on the first page, save two more pages for copyright information, etc. then I know I have the rest of the book for my text. I look at it and try to decide what amount of it should go on the first page of text, what on the second. I ask myself, "If I put these lines on one page will that be too much for the illustrator to draw, too many different actions or scenes? Should I divide this text and put it onto two pages?" Making this kind of dummy is a way of seeing if you have enough going on in your story, or it can tell you you have too much going on, that no illustrator could illustrate in 32 pages.

Ducky: Would text appear on every page of your dummy, after the first four?

Jackie: It wouldn't have to. But I wouldn't want to have a lot of blank pages. Sometimes after a story has been accepted and the illustrator has begun to draw, words can be taken out because the information is conveyed in the pictures, but until that phase I want to have words to convey the important elements of my story.

Norene: Do you allow room for pictures or do you just estimate amount of space needed for them?

Jackie: When I'm doing the dummy it looks really tacky--three lines of text stapled on to a page. I don't actually know where the illustrator and book designer will decide where to put the words. I just want to see if my words fit the format. Sometimes I find it takes me 29 pages to get to the nub of the problem. That leaves me only 3 pages for solution and ending. And I know that's not enough so I have to do some cutting in the earlier parts of the book. A picture book dummy is just one more tool for seeing how well a manuscript is working.

Ducky: Does text have to be evenly distributed on pages?

Jackie: Good question. No, it doesn't. Some parts of your story may naturally go together and you will want them all on one page. Some parts that you may want to emphasize may mean that you have fewer lines on those pages.

Norene: So do you wind up with a lot of revisions?

Jackie: I often do a lot of revisions. I wrote a tall-tale fishing story that I revised about five times...majorly. Then of course I tinker, change a word here and there hundreds of times.

Willie Willow Tree: So do you mark the page breaks when submitting or let the publisher do that?

Jackie: Editors and illustrators like to decide on the page breaks because page breaks often influence the kinds of illustrations that will work.

Ducky: Do you send a dummy with your manuscripts?

Jackie: No, I don't send a dummy. I have been told that sending a dummy is not necessary because book designers, illustrators and editors want to do that. I think 20 years ago when I first started I sent a dummy, but not since then (and that book was never accepted.)

DebO: Can you give any tips on how to cram a good story into the limited word count of a picture book?

Jackie: It's hard. But I think it helps to look at your story in your head, then off the page, and ask yourself what are the key elements in this story? What do I need to tell this story? Take out everything you don't need. Someone once said that most of revision is cutting and I think that is true. Another thing that makes a story good is that we care about the characters. If you have not read First Tomato by Rosemary Wells, find it. It's very short but it's a wonderful story. And look at Where the Wild Things Are--another great story that can be typed on one or maybe two pages. Characters that appeal to us make great stories, so think carefully of details that will convey your characters. Look at stories you love: what details do those writers choose? What kinds of details do they give us to tell us about their characters? I am constantly going to picture books I love to learn how to write better.

Norene: Do picture book editors ever suggest a story line for you to work on? Such as a plot?

Jackie: I know that this happens with some writers, but it has never happened with me. I write about what I am interested in or obsessed by and then I try to find an editor who is also interested in the story. I think good stories have been done at editors' suggestions but I am a very slow writer and to spend the amount of time that I do with a subject I really have to love it.

Ducky: After a picture book is accepted, is there usually a lot of rewriting?

Jackie: Usually much of the rewriting is done before a picture book is accepted. An editor might say, "We're interested in this manuscript but think the ending should be different. If you'd like to work on that and send it back we'd like to see it." Sometimes a publisher will offer a contract after that revision. Sometimes they will say it still doesn't work. That can be hard. But I once had an editor who said, "Nothing is wasted." And I believe it. I believe all the writing we do makes us better writers.

GreyWolf: Is the demand great for picture books?

Jackie: The good news is that the demand is great for picture books. There are parents, grandparents, schools, and public libraries purchasing picture books. The bad news is that there are more people writing picture books, and wanting to write picture books, than books for older children. People think it's easier to write picture books. Those who realize it's not and are willing to work at it are ahead of the game and much more likely to have a manuscript accepted.

MODERATOR: There are three related questions here about illustrations--let me post them all and have you discuss this . . .

Shoeless: Do you get to review the illustrations that are used in your books?

VMK: If you know someone who is an already acclaimed artist who wants to illustrate your book, is this acceptable or does the publisher still prefer to use his/her own illustrator?

SaraJ: How involved are you with the choosing of the illustrations for the book?

Jackie: This could be a rather long answer. I hope you will be patient with me. First I'll do the second part, If I knew an acclaimed artist who wanted to illustrate my book, I'd ask him/her to do a couple of illustrations to go with the text, make slides, or color copies of those illustrations and send them along with the text. The publisher might like the combination and send contracts to you and the illustrator, or the publisher might like the text but not think the illustrations were suitable or vice versa. But it won't hurt to send them. Remember not to send originals.

My input on the illustrations of my books has varied. With some I have not seen anything until the book was published. With others I have seen the illustrator's dummy which actually has sketches and has the words placed where they might be in the book. And with some I have seen the "proofs" from the printers. On a couple of occasions that has been helpful because we have seen things in those proofs that we could change to make a better book. But generally I don't have a lot of confidence in my visual ability. Illustrations that I initially don't like turn out to be very effective (if you ever see a copy of Good Times on Grandfather Mountain, look at the 2-page spread of the cow. I think it's wonderful now, but didn't like it when I first saw it.) So I guess my answer generally is that I don't have a lot of input on illustrators, but that is okay with me because I don't have a lot of visual ideas.

author2b: How long does a typical manuscript take you to write?

Jackie: I can work on manuscripts for a year or more, revising, letting them sit, taking another look, but I can do a first draft in 6-8 months. That is from the time I get the idea, do the research (even fiction books often require research), figure out how to tell the story, change my mind, etc. and write a draft takes about 6-8 months.

Ducky: How often do you write?

Jackie: I should add to that last answer. That I'm never done with that first draft. I try to write every day. If I am doing school visits I can't do that. But I started keeping a journal this summer and I may take that along to school visits and try to write a bit early in the morning. I think the act of writing makes us more observant, more awake for details that might be useful in stories.

MODERATOR: Could you recap for the following viewer who joined us a while ago?

StephNardei: What age group are picture books usually meant for?

Jackie: We tend to think of picture books as being for toddlers and preschoolers and maybe kindergartners. But actually I think their use extends upwards far beyond that. I know they are used by upper elementary school teachers, middle school and high school teachers. And adults buy them as well. Still, when we are writing we must choose details for our stories that will be understood by 4-8 or 9 year olds.

DebO: What is your opinion of rhyming picture books?...and what is the market like for them today?

Jackie: Rhyming picture books are even harder to do that easy-readers. Often the story gets twitched around to fit the demands of the rhyme. Jean Karl, in her book How To Write and Sell Picture Books says think of your story; if you don't absolutely have to tell it in rhyme, don't. Barn Dance by Bill Martin and John Archambault is a good example of a good rhyming story.

MODERATOR: Can you recommend any specific how-to books for aspiring picture book writers?

Jackie: Well, I just used the Jean Karl book in a class I taught on writing picture books. I think it's very useful. Jane Yolen has a book that I've read about 6 times. It's also very useful. James Giblin, who's written a lot of non-fiction for children has a book called Writing Books for Young People. Barbara Seuling has written another helpful book, I can't remember its exact title. And another book that I recommend, and have enjoyed is Dear Genius, a compilation of the letters of the legendary Harper editor, Ursula Norstrom. What the letters convey is how much she *cared* about children's books, and how hard she worked to make them as good as they could be.

MODERATOR: For the next fifteen minutes or so, I'd like to discuss your Caldecott award picture book, Snowflake Bentley. Many questions came in ahead of time, and I'll start with those. First, where did you get the idea to write about Wilson Bentley?

Jackie: When our children were young they received a gift subscription to Cricket Magazine. Wilson Bentley was the subject of a short article in Cricket in 1979. I first learned of him there and never forgot him. Justin, Sarah and I would speak of him whenever it snowed in Iowa. Eventually either Justin or Sarah said, "Mom, why don't you write about Snowflake Bentley?" And I thought it was a great idea because I so love the story of his life.

MODERATOR: Why did you think others would be interested in the story of a Vermont farmer who died in l93l?

Jackie: I think there are some aspects of his life that are timeless--his devotion to his art, his curiosity, his perseverance. I think children and parents can be moved by his own parents' love that allowed or required them to save $100 (a huge amount of money in the late 19th century) for his camera, that he didn't even know how to use! He is the kind of person we might call odd, if we lived next to him, because we wouldn't see the whole picture of his life. I hoped that readers would respond to the whole picture of his life.

MODERATOR: How did you do research for this book? And could you give us the gist of the story of his life?

Jackie: I'll tell you a bit about his life first. Wilson Bentley was born on a small farm in Vermont in 1865. He was educated at home until age 14, attended school for a year. When he was 15 his mother gave him an old microscope. He used it to look at raindrops, flowers, blades of grass, and snowflakes. When he saw snowflakes he realized what he wanted to do for his life's work was show others the beauty of snowflakes. He tried drawing them for three winters but they melted before he could finish. Then he saw in a catalog a camera with a microsope attached that he thought he could use. He convinced his parents to spend the $100 to buy the camera and spent two winters figuring out how to use it. In his life he took over 5000 pictures of snowflakes, but he never got rich. At one point he told a friend he had spent about $15,000 and taken in about $4,000. He did his work not for money, nor acclaim, but only so others could see the beauty he had seen. He died in 1931, just a couple of weeks after publishing a book which collected about 2000 of his photographs.

MODERATOR: Did you talk with any of his family?

Jackie: When I was researching the book I wrote to a couple of Bentleys whose addresses I got from the phone directory, but they weren't related. I did talk with a woman who knew some of his nieces and nephews and after the book was published one of his great-great-nieces called me and said she liked it.

MODERATOR: Here is a very interesting viewer question...

Norene: Were you aware of how many times he frostbit his fingers by handling the prefrozen slides he used to catch the snowflakes on?

Jackie: I know he worked in the cold so frostbite would not have been unknown to him, but I don't know how many times he had frostbite. I think he worked with gloves on, but they might not protect for a whole day.

MODERATOR: Why did you decide to write a picture book and not a chapter book?

Jackie: I like the picture book format. I really like that every word is important. I like thinking about individual words. So that's the main reason. Students often ask if I'll ever do chapter books, and I'm not sure if I will. I really like working with texts that are short, intense. And, a woman named Gloria May Stoddard had written a chapter book biography of Wilson Bentley.

MODERATOR: How did you decide what information to put in the sidebars you used?

Jackie: Originally most of the information was in the text, but there was some "back" information at the end of the book. During the course of revising the main story down to 1000 words, I had to take out a lot of interesting facts. And I love side bars, and had used them before, so when my editor suggested that we use the back information and the cut-out information in side bars, I leapt at the idea. The side bar information is keyed to be kind of like a footnote to the main story, something for "readers who want to know more."

Shoeless: How would you set up your manuscript to let the publisher know you wanted to use sidebars?

Jackie: I typed (double spaced) the main part of the story. Then using a smaller type-face I typed the side bars. Then I just (very low-tech) cut out the side bars and glued them on to the text where they fit.

Norene: Tell Jackie I was once told by a grand-neice of Bentley's that he had frostbite more than a dozen times, as the glass slides used to cut into the ends of his gloves, which his mother hand knit for him, wearing out the finger tips.

Jackie: I'm not surprised at the dozen times of frostbite. I think he tried never to miss a storm, if it was a "good" one, that is, had crystals that would make good photographs.

MODERATOR: Did you discuss the format with Mary Azarian? Did you have to provide notes for her?

Jackie: I did not discuss the format with Mary, though I think my editor did, and I think she had conversations with the book's art director. I sent her a copy of his book Snow Crystals.

MODERATOR: How/when did you find out that you'd won the Caldecott?

Jackie: I was at my desk writing on the morning that the winners were announced, and a bookseller friend called and said, "Snowflake Bentley has won the Caldecott." I said, "No, it hasn't. Check your sources." I knew we had worked hard on the book, but I wasn't expecting a biography to be considered for the Caldecott. And of course no one knows what books they are considering until they make their announcements.

MODERATOR: How has winning a major award like this changed your life?

Jackie: I think the changes are external. More people know my name and what I do. And I get maybe more invitations to speak and do school visits. But my goal--that is, to write the best books I can, to write better tomorrow than I did yesterday--has not changed at all. I still have doubts. I still believe in the value of good books for children and still learn from my favorites.

MODERATOR: Neat answer. . . One last viewer question . . .

author2b: Do you have a writers' support group?

Jackie: When I started writing we lived in that isolated farm house with pigs as our nearest neighbors. I didn't know anyone else who was doing what I was doing. So I didn't have a support group. Now I know of a few people in my area who write children's books, but not many who write picture books, so, no, I don't. I have two sisters who are interested in children's books and I send manuscripts to them. And I have a couple of other "readers" but not a regular group of writers.

MODERATOR: I'm very sorry to interrupt, but our time is up tonight. I want to thank Jackie for joining us tonight and sharing her expertise on picture book writing. This has been very helpful!

Jackie: Thank you for inviting me. I've enjoyed being a part of this group and hope you will all keep at your writing. I wrote for several years before any of my manuscripts were accepted.

MODERATOR: Thank you! And now, be sure to come back next Thursday night when Linda Wirkner talks about "R & R: Revision and Rejection". Linda Wirkner's book Mystery of the Blue-Gowned Ghost received l7 rejections before acceptance and is now in its 4th printing. Her articles and stories have appeared in magazines including Children's Digest, Guideposts for Kids, Appleseeds, Hopscotch, Boys' Quest and others. Linda currently serves as Regional Advisor for the Mid-Atlantic chapter of SCBWI. New and veteran writers alike must learn the art of accepting constructive criticism and dealing with rejection, without being personally wounded or giving up. For tips on how to survive--and more importantly, profit from--rejection, come and hear Linda share her "R & R" experiences! And until next week, good night, everybody!

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