Mel is Mel Boring, moderator of this interview with Kristi Holl and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site.

Interviews are held every other Thursday evening for two hours, beginning at 9 CANADA/
Atlantic Time, 8 Eastern Time, 7 Central Time, 6 Mountain Time, and 5 Pacific Time.
 

Mel: Good spring evening, ICL Chatsters, and good evening to Kristi Holl, a children's writer who has been in this ICL Chat Room many more times, and for more years than I have! Kristi has been our Chat Guest about writing mysteries for young readers, about writers' conferences, about how to get published, publishing after 9/11, how to go from frustration to publication, and other topics. Kristi Holl is SO able to chat about ANY area of children's writing. But tonight we will be talking with her about writers AND editors, and how they are best to meet each other "across the desk." Kristi has spent just about as many years as a children's editor as she has as a children's writer, and her expertise in BOTH will be richly rewarding for us this evening. Kristi, a WARM WELCOME back home to you!

Kristi: It's so good to be here, Mel and everyone! Thanks for having me!

Mel: Kristi, before the first question, can you fill us in on what you've been doing in the past year or so, since we "saw you" last?

Kristi: Sure! I still have a few ICL students who are fairly close to graduation and I've been writing four books for Zonderkidz this year. One came out last fall, one this month, and two are scheduled for next year. And I've been editing (mostly middle grade novels) for Zonderkidz this year, and writing some test questions and passages—staying busy!

Mel: FOUR books, WOW! Can you tell us any details about the books YOU've written for Zonderkidz?

Kristi: They are my first nonfiction for middle graders. They are 90-day devotionals for girls 8 to 12, and when the fourth book is published, they'll be compiled into a one-year book. The first book from last fall is already in its fifth printing, which really delights me.

Mel: Here's a good personal question from casey for us to get caught up with you on:

Kristi: Bless you for asking. Yes, she came back from Iraq last spring and her unit is set to re-deploy next fall, but we got some good news a couple weeks ago. Her unit isn't going till Jan. '06, and she might be done with her army obligations by then; so it's quite possible she might not have to go back after all. I have many students with husbands and sons and daughters still over there. I know it's rough. THANK YOU for asking!

Mel: That is TERRIFIC NEWS, Kristi! Most of us have no DIRECT connections with Iraq, and we are so HAPPY for you and your family! Kristi, you've been a writer a lot longer than an editor. In the beginning, how did you yourself initially work with editors?

Kristi: I really had no contact with magazine editors, except for the few who sent contracts for stories or articles. With them, I think I sent thank-you notes. With book editors, I was terrified at first. Very tongue-tied. I really preferred a letter from an editor instead of a phone call back then. I don’t think I even asked for any contract changes the first three or four books. I just signed whatever was sent to me.

Mel: It's hard for us to imagine a SEASONED published writer like you being as scared as WE are, Kristi, THANKS for that reassurance! How did the author-editor relationships change as you published more?

Kristi: I got more comfortable talking to editors, and then I got comfortable negotiating contracts. (I bought a book on it so I knew what to say.) But after about ten books were published, I grew an "attitude" that was borderline cocky. When my editor wanted to turn down my eleventh book, I argued with her and she went forward with it. It was published, got poor reviews, and taught me a good lesson. She was right that it was lacking something and needed more work. I had a good healthy respect for her from then on, and we became good friends. I would say we worked together as equals. (Equals does not mean acting with buddy-buddy informality, though, unless an editor does it first. Then it’s fun.) I’d have to say that trust is at the core of the editor-author relationship. The editor respects the writer's point of view, the author’s style and what she wants to accomplish with the book. A good editor remembers that the book is the author’s. On the other hand, the writer trusts the editor to tell him the book’s strengths and weaknesses. The editor helps a writer remember the purpose for writing the book. A large part of my job deals with making sure the story line works, the writing flows, the vocabulary is effective for the intended readers. Sometimes I have to get picky and help the author remember that quality of writing is just as important as having an exciting or unique idea. Of course, this happens a lot more with the newer writers and less with authors who have published dozens of books already. Even so, the best writer has blind spots that require an editor’s sharp eye.

Mel: And now you are BOTH writer and editor, doing YOUR work and HER editor work, in a sense! Kristi, I have a gut feeling that MOST of us new writers are very SUSPICIOUS of editors, just because it's unknown territory for us. Do you sense that as an editor with writers who are maybe just starting?

Kristi: I don't know if I would say suspicious, but there is a lack of trust that we're on the same side. I've had to come out and say to them sometimes to remember that we want the same thing. I remember my own editor giving me that speech years ago. She reminded me that it didn't do HER reputation any good to have my book flop either! I had never considered that HER reputation was on the line if I got bad reviews or bad sales. I would suggest that authors give editors the benefit of the doubt going into it, assume you'll work well together. Don't assume you'll be adversaries. It doesn't have to be that way at all.

Mel: When making contacts with editors (whether by phone, e-mail, or at conferences), is it all right to mention published writers you know or are friends with to get your foot in the door?

Kristi: Well, yes and no. If you truly are friends with an author who’s read your material and wants to recommend you, go ahead and mention his/her name. But DON’T namedrop someone you don’t really know, or submit something saying, "I’m a friend of___, and she said I should send this to you." Editors will call that person—I’ve gotten a few calls like that just this month—and the names were people I didn’t even know. I might have met them when I spoke at a conference, but I didn’t remember their names. We certainly weren’t best friends, as one person claimed. If I DO recommend that someone send something to the acquisitions editor, it’s only after I know the writer personally and have read their stuff. And I ask my editor ahead of time if this person can submit something so the inquiry gets read. You shoot yourself in the foot by claiming a relationship with someone you only met at a conference or online—editors will check it out. It’s fine to say, "I heard ZZZZ speak at ZZZZ conference and thought this story might work in your fiction line for middle graders" or whatever. But don’t claim backing for a project that you don’t really have.

Mel: EXCELLENT advice, Madame Editor! In what capacities have you worked as an editor?

Kristi: I’ve read through "slush" for an adult mystery publisher (Five Star Mysteries) and passed along promising books to the Acquisitions Editor...

Kristi: It was always exciting when one of my "finds" was published. I ended up editing a number of those books as well. From 1998 to 2002 I was the online Web editor for ICL and Long Ridge. There I worked with electronic submissions. For about 18 months now, I’ve worked for Zonderkidz, the children’s division of the Christian publisher Zondervan, as a content editor and sometimes copyeditor. I’ve edited fourteen or fifteen novels for various series that will be coming out.

Mel: I AGREE HEARTILY! It's so GOOD to have you here, Kristi!

Kristi: Bless you! Chautauqua is about the most magical place I know!

Mel: You're RIGHT!

Kristi: Yes, it is in some ways, and in other ways it's like a friendship or marriage because writing is so personal, and we have our egos tied up in our work. If we were just making widgets for an employer, it would probably be easier, but with an editor, you're having to listen to criticism of your "baby" and try to see the truth in it. Many times, it's no more welcome than having your spouse sit you down for one of "those talks" because it hits us where we're vulnerable. Of course, there are gentle editors and brusque editors and, as with friends or spouses, it's always easier to swallow criticism from a gentler person who tells you what they LIKE first. But you can always choose to take the critiques and suggestions in a good manner, no matter how they come. I've been blessed with wonderful editors my whole career. The only harsh critiques I ever got—and they were BRUTAL—were from critique group members. They stung, I admit.

Mel: From the editor's side of the desk, what tips can you give our chatsters for a more successful writer/editor relationship?

Kristi: To answer that, I’d first like to quote something from a book called The Forest for the Trees: An Editor’s Advice to Writers by Betsy Lerner: "Try to remember that the time before you publish is the only time you will ever work in complete freedom. After you’re published you will be forced to contend with the shockingly real voices of critics, agents, editors, and fans. You never again have the luxury of writing in total obscurity." You will work better with editors if you remember that from now on, it’s a team effort. And you want to be a healthy, helpful part of the team. Yes, it’s still your manuscript, but it’s in the hands of a lot of other people, once it’s accepted for publication.

Mel: Such RICH advice, Kristi, THANK YOU!

Kristi: Yes, I've seen that very thing in critique groups; we writers want to rewrite other people's stuff all the time. In fact, just last week, I had a sweet student very gently tell me that I was trying to turn her picture book into something she didn't intend. It's something I have to watch strictly as an editor. Editors know that the book or story they are working on with you is YOUR story. You don't last long as an editor if you make those kinds of substantial changes in someone's work. It's not the editor's right or job. Only one time—and it was a magazine story years ago—did an editor change my story to something I hated. She added (I kid you not) this line to the end of my story: "And the moral of this story is..." With books, you get suggestions from the editor, but YOU make the changes. Plus you see the book at various stages and get final "say" on the finished editing and copyediting. But you're right—some critique groups get very heavy-handed with their "help."

Mel: WELL SAID! It's still OUR book!

Kristi: Thanks! Me too!

Kristi: If you mean self-publishing when you say publishing my own books, then no, I've never done that. But I am working on two mainstream fiction books now that are about done and ready to get "out there" and take their lumps in the marketplace.

Kristi: A good editor is a writer's best friend. She reads the manuscript several times, lets it simmer, reads it again, and writes a critique. You get told what works, first—music to our writerly ears—and then he/she tells you what (in their opinion) doesn't work as well. On the initial content edit (your first critique) you deal with things like the plot being thin in the middle, or characters that seem flat, or someone's motivation doesn't ring true. At this stage, the editor makes you really think about what you're trying to say and what you want the reader to come away with. After that revision (or two revisions, maybe) the editing gets "pickier," for want of a better word. When I do the "style" edits, I focus on things like verbs—I have a couple of writers who add "-ing" to EVERYTHING—and tightening the extra verbiage out of it, and seeing that things flow well and there aren't any minor viewpoint slips—things like that--the fine tuning. But a good editor helps you see what your goal for the book is, find the weak spots, and inspire you to strengthen them.

Mel: I MUST agree, Kristi. I've never worked as an editor. But the longer I work as a writer, the MORE I see what a JOINT project every book MUST be—we need editors, they need US! THANKS for making that so clear here!

Kristi: It's easier having been a writer first, I think, to work with other writers. I just have to think back and ask myself, "What did I need from an editor?" and "How did I like to be treated?" The Golden Rule works pretty much everywhere!

Kristi: Well, your first editor will probably be the acquisitions editor (of which there are several, with one of them being the senior acquisitions editor). They will work with you getting the book or proposal in its best shape to be presented to the publication board for approval. Then after you get a contract, you will be handed off probably to someone like me or some editor who works in-house for a content edit, and then later, after revising, a style edit. After that, a copyeditor gets your manuscript, and using that honking-big book, The Chicago Manual of Style, will make all your words conform to the current English standards. I copyedit sometimes—it's very exacting work. That's about all the editors, although several proofreaders will read your book near the end, and if you're publishing with a Christian publisher, you'll also get a theological reviewer looking at your work. Lots of people!

Kristi: Acquisitions editors are in charge of acquiring new manuscripts for their publishing houses; sometimes they read the "slush," or unsolicited, but not usually. They are the editors who first see your proposals and make a decision whether to return it to you or take it to the next level and get a profit and loss statement done for a contract, etc. Yes, you can get a manuscript critique many places. Magazines like Once Upon A Time have ads in them for former editors, like Barbara Seuling, who do critiques and you can find online places for critique. And (not to advertise here) I also do critiques for people. I would just suggest that you find someone who has actually published what you are hoping to sell. When people contact me for critiques, I only take the early readers and middle grade books and early YA novels, the kind I have published. It wouldn't be fair, in my opinion, to critique things like picture books because I have no experience there.

Mel: What can a writer do to help him/herself before ever contacting an editor?

Kristi: Learn all you can about the magazine or book publishing process. There are Web sites and articles and books (like the one I mentioned) that you can read. Learn what’s normal, what an editor’s job is, how long you might normally have to wait for responses, etc. Use the SCBWI and the ICL message boards to ask questions. Make use of all the information that’s out there and educate yourself.

Mel: What about dealing with authors when giving critiques and constructive criticism?

Kristi: I try to critique the way I try to teach: telling the writer the good things and strong points about the book first. Then I make the critique suggestions. I can usually tell how successful students and new writers will be at getting published by the way they react to criticism. When you’re starting out, you must be willing to accept and respond to criticism from those who know better than you do. An unwillingness to learn is—in my opinion—an unwillingness to grow.

Mel: What exactly is that "profit and loss statement" you mentioned a minute ago?

Kristi: It's what they use in the publishing house to figure your advance. They are making an educated guess as to how many copies of your book they can sell, based on previous sales of this type of book, or your own track record if you have one. It's basically the financial statement that says whether they think your book would make them a profit or not.

Mel: Two related questions from chatsters, Kristi:

Kristi: I don't know about any courses to take to be editors, there probably ARE some, I just don't know what they are. I got asked to edit each time because someone in charge—the acquisitions editor both times—knew my work. I didn't just get hired, though. I got to try a couple of edits for the editor, and several senior editors looked at them to see if I critiqued the things they would have and to see if I could get the point across in a letter without offending the author. And after I did a few of those and they liked them, then I started getting a lot of work. I think having taught for ICL over 20 years helped a lot there. I critique and edit exactly the same way I teach—no difference at all, really.

Mel: So it sounds like editors are "shepherded" themselves at first?

Kristi: Oh yes. They can't just turn you loose with their authors until they can trust you. You have someone looking over your work for some time at first.

Kristi: Bless you!

Kristi: I used to cry a LOT with every rejection, so I can identify, and I didn't have the guts to read my work aloud in a critique group until I'd had TEN books published. I couldn't take the criticism. One of the best books I ever read that helped me a lot was a book by Ralph Keyes called The Writer’s Book of Hope, and he gave such details of rejections that the most famous writers still get all the time! And then I started asking my well-published friends who had won lots of awards and found out to my surprise that they still got rejected all the time! Even the Newbery winners get lots of rejections. It finally dawned on me that rejections are just part of the writing life, and it's not personal to me at all. But in the early years of rejections and occasional negative reviews, I cried privately. Now, a bad review or rejection doesn't even faze me. By the time I get back from the mailbox, I've gotten over it and moved on. You'll get there too!

Mel: Kristi, it's obvious that you are a SENSITIVE editor. We hear so many of the "war stories" with writers versus editors—too many of them, I think. It's so NICE to hear such comforting, writer-appreciating words from the editor YOU!

Kristi: Well, I've been blessed myself with fine editors. But thanks!

Kristi: For the sake of consistency and developing a good working relationship, it's best to stick with the same editor. I know at Zonderkidz that I get the same series people for several books in a row, and we work better together with each book because we've learned each other's style. About the only time we switch editors is if a writer and editor clash or don't see eye-to-eye very well. Then it behooves us all to find a better "marriage" so the best work gets done.

Kristi: That's the kind of thing I hate to see! My guess is that an editor moved to a different publishing house after the first book was edited, and no one caught the change in the second book till it was too late.

Kristi: Sure. I have a B.A. in elementary teaching, but I only taught a very short time before I had my kids. That's when I started writing, and I never went back to teaching school.

Kristi: No, I'm not an acquisitions editor. I don't make that decision. I get the manuscripts to work on AFTER they've been contracted for. Mel, can I give the information for contacting Zonderkidz here?

Mel: YES, please do!

Mel: THANK YOU for such nicely DETAILED information, Kristi!

Kristi: I copied it off their website, but you're welcome!

Kristi: Yes, I do it all the time. Even though I work for Zonderkidz now, I still have to write "Requested Material" on my envelope to my editor there so it doesn't get automatically returned. If that's the question you were asking.

Kristi: It will be different at various publishing houses, but I look at the money first! At the advance, when it is to be paid, at the royalty rate, how often royalties are paid, what the deadlines are. We can talk more about deadlines later, but study them carefully in the contract. If it's a series, I wouldn't agree to deadlines so close together that you can't do a good job. I have a couple of books on contract negotiations so that I know what to look for. Writer's Digest Book Club has a couple of good ones you can go by, especially if you're like me and don't have an agent. Here’s one: How to Understand and Negotiate a Book Contract or Magazine Agreement by Richard Balkin.

Kristi: Great!

Kristi: I don't know that there is an average. When I started, my first book 23 years ago just got a $2,000 advance; by the time I sold my fourth book, that had tripled. Then advances got pretty high in the early 90's, then they dropped in the late 90's, and this past year (at least for me) they took a hefty leap up. I hope that's indicative of publishing overall. So much depends on what type of book you're selling—fiction or nonfiction—and whether you have to split the money with someone like an illustrator of a picture book. I know this is a wishy-washy answer, but I don't have that much experience other than my own.

Mel: I think it is indicative, Kristi. At a recent SCBWI conference about agenting, one agent mentioned a six-figure advance she had negotiated, over $100,000. It was for two books, though not for a "big-name" author!

Kristi: Mine didn't make a leap THAT high—more's the pity!

Kristi: No, you don't pay the advance back. Just make sure you don't have that in the fine print of your contract—I've never seen it myself, but there could be a disreputable publisher who might try it, I suppose. That's why writers try to get big advances—it's theirs to keep no matter what.

Kristi: During my career, I have made a pretty even split between publishers like Simon & Schuster and the old Scribners and Macmillan and Christian publishers like Tommy Nelson, Zonderkidz, Standard and Cook. Yes, there is definitely a growing market for Christian writing for kids, with the huge growth of private Christian schools and home- schooling families, the need is there.

Kristi: If the editor asks to see it again after you've made the changes, then definitely do so, but if they don't ask to see it, they don't want to see it again. One time I made such substantial changes to a book that had been rejected that I wrote a short note to the editor and asked permission to resubmit it to her. After she agreed to take another look, I sent it to her.

Kristi: I can always journal and I also have some great books like A Writer’s Book of Days by Judy Reeves with the best writing advice and writing prompts I've seen.

Kristi: If the family is really famous, you might be able to find enough information on them at your county museums or by researching newspaper archives. You don't HAVE to interview them, but you might get some really interesting and unique stuff that way. And no, you don't have to get permission to write about them. (Mel, correct me if I'm wrong. Nonfiction isn't my strongest area.)

Mel: You are right, Kristi!

Kristi: Before I answer that I wanted to let the chatters know that if we don't get to all my material I prepared, that there will be more information in the transcript about specific DOs and DON'Ts for working with editors so you don't accidentally make some big mistakes. Now, about Charweb's question: I think this is one place the Internet is really valuable. Learn how to do specific searches for the kind of information you're looking for. If you're a student, use that little red book called Searching: A Research Guide for Writers, which is chock-full of so many Web sites where you can find what you're looking for. For me, when I needed help, I read a book called Internet for Dummies for how to find specific information like that. There's more to it than just typing the words into Google.

Mel: Exactly right, and THANKS for mentioning that there will be extras in the transcript, Kristi. If an editor suggests a change in a magazine piece or a book, what is the smartest response a writer can make?

Kristi: I would say make the change most of the time. Please don’t argue with every suggestion. A good editor usually knows what will make your piece stronger, and that’s what you want. An editor doesn’t wear rose-colored glasses when reading your story, which is good. At least take time to consider the changes that are suggested. If you get a reputation for arguing about everything, editors WILL remember and not care to work with you again.

Kristi: No, I've never had one, but I've bought several books on agents and "how to get an agent in 30 days" etc. Usually about the time I'm sick of the submitting process, then I talk to a writer friend who is so disgusted with his/her agent not responding, not submitting, etc., that I decide I'd rather do it on my own. There are still many publishers that don't require an agent, and I'm just cheap enough that I don't want to give someone 15% of my money. :)

Mel: My own impression is that, anyway, it's as difficult to get an agent nowadays as it is to get a publisher!

Kristi: Yes!

Kristi: I am assuming you mean a book mystery, not a magazine story.

Mel: Yes, I believe that’s what tach means.

Kristi: Middle grade (for 8-12) is usually 25,000-30,000 words and the next level up, of 12-16 is roughly 30,000 to 45,000 words. Some are longer, depending on the publisher. Books are getting shorter these days, though.

Kristi: If the book doesn't sell well enough to get the advance earned back, the publisher is "out" its money. It's a risk they are willing to take. The agent only gets 15% of the money that comes to the author, whether from advances or royalties later. Often a first book or two don't earn back their advances—mine didn't. But if by the third book you aren't earning it back, it would be rare to sell another book to that publisher. Some publishers may not even allow that much of a grace period, but many do.

Mel: Lucky for me!

Kristi: No, I wouldn't do that. I sure wouldn't expect it. We do the critiques, but you have to do the work of revising the manuscript, and you get the credit. Sometimes, in book dedications, I've seen authors thank their editors for their help though. I wish I had done that with my first editor, Gail Paris, at Atheneum. She was the most patient and kind editor.

Kristi: If you mean when working with an editor, there are a couple of "biggies" than can end your career pretty fast. One is being very, very difficult to get along with, being a "diva" who has to be handled with kid gloves and has an attitude of "Aren't I wonderful?" all the time. The other biggie is missing your deadlines all the time, then blaming everyone but yourself for it. I had that happen last year with an author that I won't work with again.

Mel: Kristi, how much time can an author take for things like research and revision, without making an editor upset?

Kristi: Be very clear in the beginning when you’re talking about contracts, just what the various deadlines are. If you think they are too tight, NOW is the time to say something. You know your own life and your daily commitments. Don’t accept deadlines you know you can’t meet unless you retreat to a remote island to work. Be realistic. Different editors will get upset by different delays. I have enough work any given month that a delay of a week—IF I get notified ahead of time—isn’t much problem. But I had an author who was three months late, and it messed up everyone who ended up working overtime to get his book out.

Mel: Deadlines are very important, then. Are they at all flexible?

Kristi: If you’re writing nonfiction, you may have more deadlines for outlines, research, finding photos, or whatever. Each deadline is important and chosen for a reason. So many people’s schedules have to mesh in order to bring your book out on time. The same is true for fiction, although the deadlines are mostly about revisions, copyediting, proofing, etc. If you miss a deadline by much, you throw off the work schedules of many people. You can even miss a critical deadline that causes your book to get pushed back to the next publishing period. Most of what I’m saying applies to magazine writers too. For a nonfiction piece, you may have deadlines for finding photos, getting revisions done, getting quotes or permissions or whatever. Missing deadlines there can get your piece postponed—perhaps indefinitely. So if you agree to a deadline, HONOR YOUR COMMITMENTS.

Mel: Do you find that writers have difficulty being patient? If so, in what ways?

Kristi: I’d like to quote something else from The Forest for the Trees: An Editor’s Advice to Writers by Betsy Lerner. She talks about the speed with which we can submit manuscripts now (fax, e-mail) and because of that, writers expect equally fast turnarounds: "But no matter how fast we can transmit material, the fact is that writing and editing, if done well, are extremely slow processes. And it strikes me that taking a certain amount of time to consider a project is warranted."

Kristi: Sure, they haven't all happened to me, but either to me or editors I know. Being overly anxious is a pain. By that I mean an author who e-mails every day wondering how the book is coming along or wanting to make a MINOR change in a chapter, or have to have their hand held constantly. Being rude to your editor—refusing to return calls or answer e-mail when your deadline is past. Turning in very sloppy work because you're already published and you think you can get away with it. Arguing about every little change and saying "that's just the way I write!" And working in Christian publishing, I think the worst thing I have to deal with sometimes is the author who doesn't think he/she needs to work on their craft because "God gave me this story," as if He'd written it in stone like the Ten Commandments and it couldn't be altered. That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but conversely, if you try to be easy to get along with, don't over-react to suggestions for revision, and get your stuff in by the deadline, editors will love you!

Mel: How often do you deal with those writers you mentioned who get overly anxious about their submissions?

Kristi: Only occasionally. This author worries about every detail, and you receive at least an e-mail a day from this person asking questions or telling you every detail of either his life or his book. If you don’t move as fast as he expects, he’s afraid it’s because you don’t like it and you have to do lots of hand-holding (figuratively speaking).

Mel: WOW, Kristi, you're hitting nails RIGHT on the head--thank you! How can writers endear themselves to an editor who takes time to work with them?

Kristi: Be appreciative when an editor takes time to work with you. Thank them for taking time to do a critique or give suggestions. An unappreciative author is no fun. He’s curt in his replies to your suggestions or comments. Or he refuses to answer your e-mail. On the other hand, he acts as though you should drop whatever you’re doing and answer HIS questions immediately. That kind of "I’m hot stuff" attitude always surprises me. I was so intimidated by editors when I started out that this kind of rudeness still takes me aback. Luckily, there are so many nice writers I can choose to work with. Life is too short. When given a chance to work again with a rude, snippy author, I pass.

Mel: How can unpublished writers cultivate those crucial editor-friendly attitudes even before working with an editor?

Kristi: If you’re a student, pretend your instructor is your editor. Meet her deadlines. Don’t argue with every suggestion or correction made on your manuscript. Don’t expect constant e-mail exchanges between lessons. Be courteous. Be with your instructor (or your critique partner) the way you hope to work with an editor. I can often tell by how my students act with me how they will do with editors. I remember when my packet of lessons got lost in the Christmas crush of mail, and about twenty students had to deal with lessons that were three weeks late. Several were hostile. But one gal—who recently got a go-ahead from an editor on an article—reacted like such a professional. She took the extra time she had to wait, went through her manuscript again, made more revisions, started her next lesson, etc., and was so very pleasant about a delay I couldn’t help. She will be a joy for whatever editors she works with in the future.

Mel: Amen! What about AFTER selling a story, article or book? How can a writer make sure subsequent manuscripts are accepted?

Kristi: Well, you can’t really make sure. Acceptance depends on sales of the previous book sometimes, things like that. But you can certainly increase your chances by not getting lax. Make your next book or story or article even better than the last one you submitted to the editor. It’s very disappointing when I get sequels that were rushed or lack the depth the first manuscript had. That’s one good reason not to accept contracts with extremely tight deadlines. Give yourself enough time to do a good job. Don’t rush through your next manuscript. Give it the same time and attention you gave the first one.

Kristi: To be honest, I'm sure I miss some fine points since I'm not an attorney or agent, but I know going into it what are "deal breakers" to me and what things I don't care that much about. Some things I won't budge on, like getting the copyright in my own name and getting paid when the book is finished. Some things I will bend on. If I can't get more money, I've asked for more free books instead, and I always get them, and then sell them for full price at conferences, and some things I've decided don't matter that much to me.

Kristi: That used to be truer than it is today. Today, your best chance is to have your work polished when the editor first sees it. Editors don't have the time they used to have to work slowly to bring authors along, and they really miss it. A huge percentage of their days are taken up in meetings, and most editors I know take home manuscripts to read at night and on weekends. I couldn't work the hours they put in, to tell the truth. These days, I get my own work critiqued before I submit it anywhere, and last year I got two paid critiques from someone I really respected because I had noticed my own editors didn't have the time to edit me like before, and the quality of my work was falling without it. I do miss the days when more time was available to "grow" authors, but I don't see the trend returning any time soon. Do you, Mel?

Mel: No, I don't, in fact, it's probably going to get worse, I'm afraid.

Kristi: Wow, I don't know how to answer that. I study market books like all of you do, and read writers' magazines trying to figure that out. I'm more aware of the Christian markets right now from working at Zonderkidz, and I see series fiction being really strong now, and for adults there is a lot of self-help and us "boomers" will read anything on health issues and retirement. It's so true, as you often read, editors don't always know what they want until you present an idea to them and they get excited about something they haven't seen before. For example, in the last few years, blogging got real popular online, and then someone proposed a series for girls for us where this group of girls has a blog, and the series is built around that. But the editor didn't know she wanted something on the topic of blogging (Web-logs) until she saw it.

Mel: Two related questions, Kristi:

Kristi: Yes, actually I have a series proposal ready to go to the publication board soon for a mystery series. I usually get ideas for mysteries from places I visit. I don't know why, but certain places (usually with some historical content) will spark an idea for a mystery, which is why so many of my mysteries are set in real locations, mostly back in Iowa.

Kristi: Goodnight, msp! Hi, Anne-Marie and Hope! My Chautauqua buddies!

Mel: Cheers for Chautauqua!!!

Kristi: I can only tell you what I charge, which is $30 an hour. A middle-grade book takes me about 4 to 6 hours, depending on its quality. The critiques I paid for last year cost a lot more, but they were done by a Simon and Schuster editor I met at a conference.

Mel: That sounds VERY reasonable from what I know, Kristi!

Kristi: If you change a story to tell it from a child's point of view, it's probably fiction then.

Kristi: I can't really say that because I've never had an agent. I need to be fair here to agents. I do have some friends who SWEAR by their agents and how much they do for them. If you're starting out, though, I think it will be very hard to get a good agent before you have some book sales, not impossible, but very hard. I think a good critiquer might be a critical first step to getting published, which would be a step to getting an agent, but I hate to push getting paid critiques, since I do that for some of my income—I'm prejudiced there!

Mel: I have heard agents say, rather recently, that THEY can't sell poor writing either—THREE of them!

Kristi: Some are former editors, some are published writers, some are current editors, some are both. Just BE AWARE that anyone can charge money for a critique. Don't be paying someone until you know their credentials. There are many people out there who can't sell their work, yet they do paid critiques and become agents. You have to do your homework before hiring anyone.

Kristi: Yes, a professional person who has either published a lot him/herself, or a real editor, or both.

Kristi: It's like a diary you post online. Try doing a Google search for blogs sometime and you'll get hundreds of them. Published writers are now putting blogs on their Web sites, updating them frequently, chatting with readers about their current work, etc. A couple of the best, most helpful blogs are Harold Underdown's blog on his Purple Crayon Web site, and Terry Whalin's blog on his Web site.

Kristi: Blog comes from blending the words "web" and "log," "weblog" became just "blog."

Kristi: Yes, it is in more demand than historical, which I'm sad to say because I've edited six of the best historical novels this year that I've read in ages. But yes, contemporary seems to be in demand at the moment.

Mel: One last GOOD question from and for us ALL:

Kristi: Ha-ha--the $64,000 question! And the answer is that I don't. I try to, and I miss it so much when I can't and it's not my work that gets in the way. It's wanting to have a life and spend time with my granddaughter and another baby due in a month or so. When my kids were little, they always came first, and they knew it, I hope. And I make that same decision now. If Abby needs Nana, it will come before the writing on some days. Of course, pretty soon I'll have her working on her own stories. My favorite photo is of her typing me a story at my computer. The hunger to write every day is always there though. I don't miss too many days.

Kristi: Hello Shari!

Mel: Kristi Holl, as ALWAYS, you have made so MUCH understandable sense of a subject, this time the often- complicated relationship of writer and editor. Your expertise at working on BOTH sides of the publishing desk is strongly evident and outstanding. THANKS for giving us so MUCH to think about, and such a positive challenge for our own writing future! We writers will have more empathy with editors from here on, I know. And we have a fresh and inviting image of editors and their need of us writers. Please will you return again someday, and continue what has been a refreshing pick-us-up tonight that will carry our writing selves through?

Kristi: All you have to do is ask! Thanks, everyone!

Mel: Kristi Holl, no one is more fun or easier to work with in the chat room than you, my friend! THANK YOU for sharing "both sides of our world" with us here tonight, the writer side and the editor side. We wish you well now, in both your writing and editing, as you lead on and we watch and follow that good lead of yours. May the sun shine on your editing relationships so that you discover bright new children's writers in that part of your work. And may the sun rise again and again on children's book projects of your own! THANK YOU again for all you've DONE and ARE DOING for us, Kristi!

Kristi: You are so very welcome! Good night, everyone!

Mel: Good night, everychildren'swriter!