Instititute of Children's Literature

Rx for Writers

Transcripts

"Writing Mysteries" with Helen Chappell

Thursday, August 3, 2000

MODERATOR is Kristi Holl, web editor of this site and author of 24 books for children and teens, as well as 100+ articles for children and adults.

Helen is Helen Chappell, columnist, award-winning reporter, and writer of books. Helen is the creator of the critically acclaimed Sam and Hollis mysteries. She's published over thirty-five books, including *Giving Up the Ghost* (Dell) and *A Frightened Ghost*.

Names color coded in blue are viewers with questions.

Interviews are conducted at 9-11 p.m. Atlantic/Canada, 8-10 p.m. Eastern, 7-9 Central, 6-8 Mountain, and 5-7 Pacific

MODERATOR: Good evening, everybody! We're here tonight to hear Helen Chappell talk on the subject of "Writing Mysteries: everything you wanted to know and some things you didn't!" Helen is the creator of the critically acclaimed Sam and Hollis mysteries and has published over thirty-five books.

You "regulars" will notice some slight deviations from the "norm" tonight during the interview, and this is why. Helen's computer crashed twice already when entering the chat room and to avoid that again, we concocted a safer way--including using a speaker phone--to post her answers for you. Since I also write mysteries (for children) Helen and I will, at times, give side-by-side answers from both our perspectives, but each person's answers will be clearly delineated.

And now, without further ado, I want to welcome Helen Chappell to the chat room!

Helen: Hi! Before we begin, I just want everyone to know I wouldn't be here at all if it weren't for Kristi Holl, who runs this show and keeps us all up to date. I really want to thank her for going the extra miles and miles and miles for me tonight. She's really a terrific lady and I thank her so much. And thank you all for being here tonight in cyberspace. I appreciate your taking the time to log on!

MODERATOR: Believe me, it's our pleasure, Helen. First of all, to let us get to know you, how did you get started writing?

Helen: When I was 16, I wrote a novel. It probably wasn't very good, but I had a friend who was a young literary agent, and she sent it to a young editor. They both encouraged me to keep trying, so I did. But I really wanted to be an artist. I just found out that it was easier to sell my writing than my art.

MODERATOR: What is a typical writing day like for you?

Helen: I crawl out of bed and think about how I have to write. Then I read the papers and drink coffee and think about how I have to write. Then I get the mail and think about how I have to write. Then I sit down and start writing. I usually work in a couple of three or four segments, taking 10 minute breaks to stare out the window and re-focus my eyes. Then I watch my favorite soap opera and eat lunch. Then I come back for the afternoon's work. I'm amazingly good at doing everything but writing right up to deadline. Then I feel the cold dead editorial fingers on my neck and I get down to work. I think the time one spends thinking, or reading or gardening or driving or whatever is also work time. You might not be at the keyboard, but your mind is working all the time. It took me years not to feel guilty if I wasn't plunked down in front of the keyboard 24-7. Then in my later career, I started realizing how much of the creative process is done away from the computer.

MODERATOR: Can you tell us about any future publishing plans?

Helen: A Fright of Ghosts, my next Sam and Hollis, is now on indefinite hold because I signed a contract to do a mainstream novel, A Whole World of Trouble. So, one way or another, my next book will be out in 2002. Until then, I'll be nose down, fanny up working on it. But I'm not giving up Sam and Hollis. I'm revising Fright right now, and expect when Trouble comes out, Fright should be not too far behind it. But it's going to be a long two years.

MODERATOR: Helen, do you read mysteries yourself?

Helen: Absolutely. I believe that to know your market is as important as writing for that market. Besides, I love mysteries. Always have. And all kinds: cozies, hard-boiled, whatever. All that matters is the writing is good and the story and characters keep me interested. But I read a lot of other things, too.

Kristi: I also wanted to point out that even if you write mysteries for children, you can learn so much from reading adult mysteries too. Except for Nancy Drew mysteries, I grew up reading adult mysteries like Agatha Christie and learned how to plot and plant clues simply from the "fun" reading I did.

MODERATOR: Who are your favorite mystery writers?

Helen: Raymond Chandler, Joan Hess, Margaret Maron, Janet Evanovich, Jimmy Lee Burke, Sue Grafton, my friends like Taffy Cannon, Jerrilyn Farmer, Laura Lippman, Sujata Massey, Chassie West, Donna Andrews, Nathan Walpow, Alan Beechy, Dianne Day, Anne Underwood Grant, Terris McMahon, ....the list goes on and on and I've left off a lot of people. And I also read a lot of non-mysteries, a lot of natural history, history, biography, whatever interests me at a given time. And I'm a great admirer of literary writers like Eudora Welty, Alice Hoffman, Anne Beattie, Anne Tyler. So many good writers, so little time. . .

Kristi: Wow! I'd like to also recommend some of my favorite children's mystery writers--Pat Rushford, Joan Lowery Nixon, Mary Downing Hahn, Zilpha Keatley Snyder, Willo Davis Roberts, and Patricia Windsor. You can start anywhere! They're all great!

MODERATOR: Is reading mysteries important if you also want to write mysteries?

Helen: I think being a voracious reader is important if you want to write. I read a lot of mysteries to keep abreast of the market (and for enjoyment) and I read a lot of nonfiction because I like to learn new things. And I enjoy mainstream fiction, especially certain authors.

MODERATOR: When did you start writing mysteries?

Helen: About eight years ago. But I'd wanted to do it for a long time before that. I've also written a newspaper column, been a reporter, an editor and a critic. I've written a play that was produced and several mainstream novels. Under a pen name, through most of the 70's, I wrote Regencies. I just signed a contract with Simon and Schuster to write a mainstream novel, based on my Oysterback short stories. That should be interesting.

MODERATOR: What about mystery writing on the Internet? Are there opportunities there?

Helen: There's a lot of e-publishing going on, but I don't know much about it. I follow developments because it's a part of the publishing industry, but I only have two short stories on MightyWords right now. I have friends who e-publish, and follow developments religiously, but I'm waaaaay behind the times on the whole subject.

Kristi: For mystery writing/publishing opportunities, see sites online like MysteryNet.com at http://www.MysteryNet.com/thecase/solveit/ and TheCase.com at http://www.TheCase.com/kids/ and NancyDrew.com at http://www.NancyDrew.com/kids/mystery/.

MODERATOR: What age groups enjoy mysteries?

Helen: All age groups, from very young children to very old folks. I do know that right now, female protagonists are the hottest thing around. I think because so many women read. But men are doing just fine--look at John Grisham, Jimmy Lee Burke, etc.

Kristi: Even the youngest children (ages 4-7) enjoy mystery stories in magazines. They have to be very simple, of course, and not violent at all. "The Mystery of the Disappearing Lunch Box" would be violent enough! Ages 8-l2 read HUGE numbers of mysteries (some magazines and mostly books), and so do Young Adults (who read adult mystery magazines, YA and adult mystery books).

MODERATOR: How many words per chapter or pages per chapter do you strive for in your mysteries?

Helen: I'd say the average adult mystery runs around 250 pp. My chapters begin where I need to start and end where I want to stop, usually with a cliffhanger. No particular length. Although if I feel that a chapter is going into extra innings, I divide it into two. This is why God made editors, to guide you through that stuff.

Kristi: For children's magazine stories, you'll need to go to the specific market listing for each magazine for their desired length. Some magazines want short mysteries--maybe 500 words--and some go up to l800 words. For books, easy reader and early chapter mysteries for early elementary grades (between picture books and novels) run around 30-100 pages, with short chapters about 5-7 pages long. Middle-grade mysteries (ages 8-l2) run about l00-l50 pages, with chapters l0-l2 pages long. Young adult mysteries (a much smaller market) are about l40-l80 pages. Middle-grade mysteries are perhaps the biggest slice of the pie.

MODERATOR: What qualities does a good hero have?

Helen: Humanity. There has to be something about the character that makes you interested in what happens to him or her. Usually, they should be likable and sympathetic, but I've certainly read books where the detective or protagonist is very unlikable and they are still interesting because the story keeps you interested.

MODERATOR: What makes a hero interesting for kids?

Helen: I would imagine the same thing that makes him or her interesting for adults. Humanity again. A personality, something about that person that makes us care about him. We don't have to like him though. I just finished reading THE MANY ASPECTS OF MOBILE HOME LIVING, an Otto Penzler selection, and the hero was, to my mind, undeserving scum. But I kept reading because the book was interesting and I wanted to see what would happen to him.

Kristi: I do think with children's mysteries, it's harder to have a hero that is more of an anti-hero. Parents and librarians get concerned if the hero is a negative role model, and it can hurt your sales. Often a good hero for a children's mystery is someone who is rather an underdog, a less popular person, someone the average reader could identify with and root for.

MODERATOR: Helen, what makes a good villain?

Helen: Again, humanity. I always like a well drawn character as a villain. Someone who's interesting and three dimensional. Dr. Evil just doesn't cut it for me. And I despise serial killer villains. It's so five minutes ago.

Kristi: I agree. We need to know WHY the villain acts as he does. Villains always have a good reason--at least, they think so--for doing what they do. Greed, anger, jealousy, whatever. . . knowing their reasons make them more human and real.

MODERATOR: Is it important that the hero knows the victim, or does it matter if it's a random crime?

Helen: Depends on the plot. Your plot will often tell you what you need to do. There are no cut and dry rules on this one. It would seem to me if it were a random crime, that the protagonist would spend the story looking for that person. I don't think it matters, as long as the story is good. There are really no hard and fast rules about things like that, as long as the story makes sense to the reader.

MODERATOR: Does a mystery need suspects?

Helen: Absolutely. How could it be a mystery without the usual suspects? You need an assortment of people from which to chose your criminal. Again, I could see a plot where there might not be suspects, but I don't know how one would accomplish that. But I could see someone being able to accomplish it who has more imagination than I do, or a different approach.

MODERATOR: What if it appears as if NO ONE has a motive?

Helen: Then the detective has to find some motives....fast! Of course, half the fun is digging up the motives the suspects want to keep hidden away. Little known facts about well known people are so interesting!

MODERATOR: Can the sleuth have a handicap that would make some things more difficult?

Helen: Lots of sleuths have handicaps. There was Ironside (remember Raymond Burr?) in his chair. There's at least one blind sleuth, a homeless sleuth, a couple of physically impaired sleuths (remember Rear Window? Jimmy Stewart was in a chair through the whole movie; Grace Kelly was his "legs"). Since every sleuth should have a schtick, I'd say a handicapped sleuth would be an asset to a sale. And making his or her disabilities a part of the plot would certainly add interest. Of course, one of my sleuths has a definite handicap---he's a ghost!

MODERATOR: Are characters really that important in mysteries, since plot seems to be everything?

Helen: I personally like well defined, interesting and even colorful characters. Maybe a little too colorful. But interesting characters can dance around a lot of plot holes--they keep the reader dazzled with the footwork. Of course, since I write comedy, a lot of my people are exaggerated and larger than life, so I might be prejudiced. But well drawn, well defined characters, in your particular style, are an absolute necessity. They keep us caring about what happens to them.

MODERATOR: How hard is it to plot a mystery?

Helen: It's hard for me. I'm a big picture person, not a detail person. So I keep forgetting to tie up lose ends. And I keep hoping that I've dazzled you with my cleverness and my larger than life (and death) characters so you won't notice. If you want to see absolute genius at plot, read Agatha Christie. She remains the mystery mistress in that respect. Her Golden Age mysteries remain some of the best ever written because she was a terrific plotter. That's why she still sells in the millions of copies every year. Raymond Chandler, who to my mind is one of the finest prose stylists in the American language, admitted that he himself was a lousy plotter. But with his characters and situations, you never notice.

Kristi: I also learned to write children's mysteries by immersing myself in adult mysteries. The plotting principles are the same, and you learn so much by osmosis while enjoying adult reading at the same time.

MODERATOR: What is a simple formula for plotting a mystery?

Helen: Well, you know the old boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl back, right? Well, with a mystery, it's boy meets body, boy loses body, boy finds body (and murderer.) That's it in a nutshell. Of course, substitute girl for boy as the case may be. (And the crime obviously doesn't have to be a murder, not with children's writing.) There are actually books available on how to plot a mystery. Check with your local library. For me, there are no simple plots. Creating each plot is a whole job of work, and the hardest part of writing. That's why I came to mysteries mid-point in my career. I didn't think I was that great a plotter.

Kristi: I found plotting hard too, and read tons of books about it, like Writing the Modern Mystery (Norville), Writing Mysteries (Grafton), Writing Mysteries for Young People (Nixon), and half a dozen books in the Writer's Digest Books "Howdunit Series." These types of books were invaluable to me in the early years.

MODERATOR: Do your editors help you with the plotting?

Helen: I have one editor who always reminds me when I've gone too far! Yes, I depend on an editor to tell me what I need to do in the second draft, what loose ends I didn't tie up, etc. It's hard sometimes to see that yourself. So a good editor helps with that, among many other things. I also have a trusted friend, an English teacher, who reads my first draft, corrects my English (I'm terrible with grammar and spelling, and the first to admit it), looks for inconsistencies and generally gives me an objective opinion on what works and what doesn't. Then I correct all that before an editor even sees it. But the editor often has ideas that only a pro could think of, so a good editor makes a world of difference.

MODERATOR: How important is choosing your setting?

Helen: I'd say write about a place you know. Write about workplaces or regions or cultures you know. If they're interesting to you, you'll make them interesting to the reader. Terris Grimes, for instance, writes about a woman who works for the state, in an office . Sounds boring, right? Not when she writes about it.

Kristi: I've chosen Iowa settings for my mysteries, all with lots of history. Nothing exotic about that, at least on the surface, but by being able to visit these places and learn about their history and interview people for stories about the area, you have a wealth of information you can use. Plus, the places come across as real because you can supply the specific details that bring the settings to life.

MODERATOR: How early do you need to reveal the important clues in order to "play fair" with the reader?

Helen: I start dropping them as soon as I can. From the very first chapter, with the foreshadowing, or even the discovery of the crime, one starts setting up the clues and the suspects. Some writers feel that you should start with the murder in the first chapter. Others think you should build to it. But always get the killing (or lesser crime, depending on the age of the reader) done early, lest you lose the reader's interest.

MODERATOR: How do you hide clues, especially so early in the book, so they aren't "seen"?

Helen: Mention them in passing. It kills 'em every time, no pun intended, when they have to go back and say, "Ooooooooh, was *that* what that was all about?" And by that I mean both characters and reader. There's an old adage that you should also have two or three red herrings, too. Things that could be legitimate clues, but aren't.

Kristi: For children's mysteries, it's easy to hide clues in lists (lists of objects seen on a desk, or in a purse, or in the trunk of a car.) Hiding clues out in plain sight also "disguises" them because it's so obvious. Creating a disturbance (siren outside, someone pounding on the door, phone ringing) after a clue is found also distracts the younger reader into temporarily "forgetting" the clue--until the end of the book.

MODERATOR: Do you outline each story before you start?

Helen: My editors insist on it. Normally, I do very thorough outlines, but with the mysteries, they're sketchy, because I like to write them by the seat of my pants. It keeps me interested too. And often I don't know whodunit until I write it!

MODERATOR: Do you finish the first draft before making changes?

Helen: With a computer, you can cut and paste and revise right along. But I do a second draft to make my major changes. And I always let someone read the first draft to see if they can catch any major glitches etc.

Kristi: This is something that certainly reflects how different writers can be! I have to thoroughly plot out mysteries, with all the clues and red herrings, before writing a fast rough draft. I never revise (or even read it) until the whole draft is done. My style would probably bore Helen, and her style would have me pulling my hair out by the roots!

MODERATOR: Do you find it easier to plant your clues after you've written the first draft?

Helen: Definitely. By then, I usually know who did it. Although once, as I was revealing the murderer, it all changed right there in the first draft! The killer was supposed to come out a door and reveal himself. I had one character emerging, then suddenly, I "saw" another character as the killer. The story told me what it wanted to do, so with some quick deletes, I changed it. But as I was writing, I mentally saw the first character disappearing and re-emerging as the second character. It was funny, like a mental movie. I really think you have to keep yourself amused as you write. If you're not interested, it's not fair to expect a reader to be interested. And readers can tell when we're not interested. You know that yourselves as writers and readers. Listen to your story. It will often tell you where it wants to go.

christine collier: Is there ever a twinge of jealousy when a fellow writer comes up with a fascinating mystery plot?

Helen: Oh absolutely. I'm only human! But also there is a great feeling of happiness when a writer friend has a big success.

imhopeful: If a publisher's guidelines state that they want adventure books, does this include mysteries?

Helen: You can certainly put a mystery in a suspenseful setting. Thrillers are in this category. They're basically suspense/mysteries.

christine collier: How many Sam and Hollis books are there?

Helen: Four--working on the fifth.

Maudy: Any recommendations for writing a FIRST mystery? Are there things to watch for or avoid?

Helen: Good question. Personally I am really tired of adult serial killers and I think from what my editor friends tell me, they want something more original. A good story is always a good story. Don't be afraid to take a chance--if you have something original. At the time using a ghost was kind of iffy, and the editors thought so too, but eventually someone bought the idea. So never be afraid to take a chance.

lovemyboys: Do you already have your mystery solved before you begin to write? Or do you start at the beginning and figure it out from there?

Helen: I have a loose outline because editors have to have it to make them happy, but I really like working and plotting as I go, which is not always the case. Only if I keep it loose does it keep me interested. Otherwise I get mid-book slump because I know too much and I get bored.

Bernadette: What do you recommend to liven up a pretty simple mystery, like "who stole the cookie from the cookie jar?"

Helen: Lively characters, first of all, and try for an interesting unusual setting. Add humor if you can--humor goes well with mystery. Look for something odd or original and creative, so let your imagination go.

Bernadette: What do you think is the most popular plot and theme that's written about?

Helen: Serial killers for adults is the most overworked. For kids we see a lot of kidnappings and school shootings lately. Try not to overdo what you see in the news, even if it seems salable. We are even seeing serial killers in young adult novels, which we [Kristi and I] both personally hate. Also the young lawyer who stumbles onto the evil plot...I never want to read one of those again. For children, I never want to read about another mysterious neighbor.

bubba: What if your protagonist is not one character, but a "gang" of characters?

Helen: Too many characters can spoil the broth sometimes, but some of the best kids' books and series have several main characters who are friends. A few adult cozies have a group of heroines too, usually older ladies. So yes, it can work, like the Sawyer books who have a whole nursing home of sleuths as a collective protagonist.

bernie: I love reading mysteries, but when writing them, they sound too simple. How do you make them more mysterious?

Helen: The best piece of advice I ever had was from a hard-boiled writer who said, "When things get dull, throw in some action and an obstacle." Every time you tie up one loose scene or adventure, start up another one immediately, keeping the pace very fast. It will relieve you and the reader of any feeling of dullness or it being too simple.

Oak Tree: Do you use a lot of dialogue in your stories?

Helen: Absolutely. As a reporter one of the things I learned to do was to let dialogue carry the story at times instead of action. Use your instincts for when to do this.

Oak Tree: If your setting is a real town, can you make up things that might have happened?

Helen: You can make up events, but I don't think you should fiddle with the real geography of the town or people will come up to you in the supermarket and yell at you. That's why I invented a whole fictional geography to work with. Often you'll find that things that happened in real life can become usable in fiction, so looking into the history and gossip of a town can turn up all sorts of plot possibilities. Just make sure everyone involved is either dead or it is disguised so that anyone alive can't sue you. Once they're dead, they're fair game.

vmk: What do you think of the Columbo type mystery where the crime is committed early on and everyone knows about it but the sleuth who must work it through?

Helen: I think that's a great approach, although I don't do it in my books because my boss wouldn't let me try that, but I do think it would be a good fun type of book to write. It makes it fun for the viewer because we all know who did it and we laugh as Columbo stumbles around trying to figure it out.

vmk: Do you have to be a logically thinking person to write mysteries? I'm much more intuitive.

Helen: I'm intuitive too and that's probably why I have to get my manuscripts read for me, so I can make sure it's very logical. But I also think intuitive people are more logical than they might think. You DO have to make sure your story sounds believable and logical to your reader, so stay within the perimeters of reality.

Maudy: How about combining historical fiction and a mystery, or is it best to just stick to the mystery when starting out?

Helen: Historical mysteries, and historical romantic mysteries, are nice niche markets. My friend Diane Day makes a good living writing in this market and if you like that type of reading and writing, do try it. Lots of people love this genre. Historical mystery, or historical mystery romance, are good genres.

Marianne: How much help does your main character get from the ghost in your stories?

Helen: That's a fine line to walk. The ghost has to help her, but can't do anything supernatural to help her because that would be cheating. Basically the ghost gets her INTO trouble more than out of trouble. He basically tags along and makes wisecracks, and he might reveal a small clue here or there, but usually when the going gets tough, he takes off and she has to work her own way out of it. If he did supernatural things to help her, it would be cheating.

christine collier: Helen, do you illustrate your books also?

Helen: I have illustrated some of my short stories but not the novels. I do wish adult novels came with illustrations like children's books though!

Ducky: How would you compare adult mysteries with middle grade mysteries? What is similar and what is different?

Helen: Good questions... The basic plot is the same: something unknown must be uncovered. The subject of the crime may be different--maybe more violent or with sex involved for adults. Kids' interests will certainly be different and the places they go will be different...and their abilities to go places to solve the crime will be different. So in children's mysteries you must have the plot be something a child can actually do.

christine collier: When two children mystery writers get together, do you have endless things to talk about?

Helen: ALL writers do. They complain incessantly about their publishers and editors! Seriously, we always have stuff to talk about with our work and then we have someone to share with who understand us. We e-mail back and forth when we should be writing!

mom of 3: What is your favorite source of inspiration?

Helen: Real life turns up some pretty odd things if you keep your ears and eyes open. Sometimes the newspaper turns up some stuff that's unique. Being a voracious reader helps if you read widely and not just trash. Voracious and eclectic readers find inspiration all around them.

vmk: When you are reading a mystery, can you usually figure it out early on? I usually have to read to the very end to find out whodunit. Would that keep me from being able to write mysteries?

Helen: NOOOOOO... That would probably make you a better mystery writer. I very rarely come up with the right suspect myself unless it's a poorly written, transparent mystery. Everybody--all the suspects--should have a motive, and it's always fun if it turns out to be the one you never thought it would be. Remember you can always change the criminal in midstream if you think your story is too obvious.

MODERATOR: I'm really sorry to interrupt right now, but we're out of time. I want to thank Helen so much for coming tonight and persevering through the technical computer problems to do so!

Helen: Thank you very much for all your questions. I hope to give a better interview in early winter on the Long Ridge Writers Group web site, when I get a new computer that works a little better than this! And again, thank you, Kristi! I do want to give credit where credit is due!

MODERATOR: You've more than welcome, Helen! And now . . . do come back in two weeks on August l7, 2000, to hear Art O'Neil discuss "Turning Interviews Into Sales!" Learn how to find good people to interview, how to conduct a successful interview, then how to turn those interviews into publishable personality profiles. Art's work has appeared in such publications as NASCAR Racing For Teens Magazine and Racing Milestones Magazine. He is currently working on a book featuring a collection of biographies of auto racing personalities. And now, good night, everyone!

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