Jan is Jan Fields, moderator of this interview/workshop, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. While red signals our guest speaker's responses. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked of our speaker.

Jan: We're lucky to have Gayle Krause joining us for the next few days to share with us about her new picture book, Rock Star Santa, and to answer questions from folks eager to know more about picture books -- especially seasonal picture books. Congratulations Gayle on your book and welcome!

Gayle: Good morning, first things, first. Let me introduce myself. My name is Gayle, as you already know. I am a children's author, who writes across the genres, picture books, MG [midde grade] and YA [young adult] novels. I am also a retired educator, who has prepared prospective teachers in a Technical/ Career Center and a Community College, and I was Director of the Laboratory Pre-K School attached to my Education Academy. My favorite unit was Children's Literature. I'm an avid reader and I tried to instill that love of reading to my students. One of their assignments was to write, create, and present a picture book to the Pre-K children. Teaching by example, I, of course, did the same. In my latter years of teaching I wrote YA fantasy and MG historical fiction. My students were only too eager to be my test readers.

Gayle: Thanks for the welcome, Chippy.

Gayle: Well, the end of the retreat draws near. I hope I've answered your questions about writing seasonal picture books. Just keep in mind that whatever you write, if it's age appropriate, has a well-developed arc, and an interesting twist on a familiar subject, written within the designated word count, you've got just as good of a chance to get your story picked up by an editor as anyone else.So with that, my parting words are write, write, write. The next big Christmas, Easter, Valentine's Day or Passover book may be yours. I'm off to put the finishing touches on my new Halloween picture book. Good-bye and thank you.

Jan: Okay, I have to ask -- how did such an unusual picture book as Rock Star Santa come about? What inspired you to write it? Tell us about that whole deal and tell us about the book, pretty please.

Gayle: ROCK STAR SANTA is rhyming picture book about a little boy who attends a 'rock concert' on Christmas Eve, but when he wakes in the morning he's not certain he was really there. He convinces himself it was a dream until he finds a torn concert ticket in his jeans, Santa's silk scarf hanging from his drawer, and spangles from Santa's vest on his bedroom floor. Even then, he's not sure, until he finds a note Santa left for him, thanking him for being his biggest fan.

Gayle: it just came to me during the Christmas holidays, two years ago. I got up early one morning and started a Christmas poem. Usually I'm inspired by something I dream just before I get up, or rhyming words start singing in my head. The words to Rock Star Santa actually sounded like a Hip Hop Song in my head. I just put them down on paper and it took me about thirty minutes to write the whole thing. I find, when writing rhyme, that if it flows fast, it's usually really good and it works. If I have to hesitate or have the verse hanging around to be finished, it usually doesn't work for me.

Jan: Do you find that your often have a kind of music or tune playing in your head to help you get the meter right? I know for a lot of the students who have sent me rhyming picture books in the course, meter is a major problem. Your saying that ROCK STAR SANTA sounded like a hip hop song in your head made me wonder if hearing the book as a song might help the meter fall into place sorta automatically.

Gayle: Actually, Jan I believe that good rhyming poetry is like a song. In fact, in a workshop I recently did for young adults I asked how many of them thought they were good singers. Five students hesitantly raised their hands. The rest sat back and tried to shrink into their desks. I laughed and told them I wasn't going to make them sing, and they relaxed a bit, but not much. For the purpose of this rhyming exercise, and to prove my point to them, I asked them to change their seats, with the "singers" on the left side of the room, and the "non-singers on the right. Then I gave the rhyming assignment and ten minutes for them to work on a four line rhyme using the two words they had previously chosen randomly from a list of numbers with corresponding word sets. The words were totally unknown to them until they had to write.

Gayle: My assumption proved correct. Of the five "singers," each had a rhyme with perfect beats and meter. (because the words "sang" in their head as they composed.) I even encouraged two of the students to submit their poems to a children's magazine. That's how good they were. The "non-singers" struggled with the assignment. And so, I can see how people who do not have a natural understanding of beats and meters end up forcing their rhyming poems and it just doesn't work. This is my own theory. It might help some of your students to understand that if they can't sing well, it would be "easier" for them to write prose. That's why editors end up saying they will not accept manuscripts in rhyme. It's not that they won't publish rhyme, it's that they receive so many with bad rhyme, they hesitate to say they will. Again, IMHO most writers think they can write rhyme, but without an ear for the "music of the rhyme" I don't believe they can. Hope I didn't offend anyone with my theory.

Gayle: My goodness, this thread is going everywhere. Yes, I do sing. I've been in several community theater productions. I was Irene Malloy in "Hello Dolly." Mabel in "Pajama Game." Hodel in "Fiddler on the Roof." and Florinda (Cinderella's stepsister) in "Into the Woods." Before you ask me which was my favorite, I'll tell you in was Irene Malloy. But my favorite cast production was "Into the Woods." I guess that's why subconsciously I put ROCK STAR SANTA on a stage, too! Hee! Hee! Hee! or should I say Ho! Ho! Ho!

Gayle: In a sense, yes. It's not the same type of flow when you write a novel, but you do have to know when your story is moving forward with a definite momentum. You could say that's a rhythm. By that I mean, as you're writing your chapters tend to be approximately the same length and you have a certain feel for how to to wrap up a scene. Otherwise, your chapters may drag on with useless information. So, yes, there is a rhythm to novel writing, as well.

Gayle: When I get an idea I am immediately inspired to move forward with it. Consequently, I have many manuscripts in various stages of revise. This may sound silly but they sort of take on a life of their own and I find that they line up in priority in my head. I work on the ones that "call to me" the most. Some sit for weeks, months, or even years, and when it's their turn they come back to my computer screen. This may be because:

1. a magazine has a call out for the specific topic
   
2. I have completed and submitted other manuscripts and am waiting for reply.
   
3. a meandering thought comes to me that relates to one of the manuscripts already written.

Gayle: That being said, anything an author gets published is a "success" in this industry and seeing your work in publications, whether they are online or print magazines, newspapers, or, yes indeed, in book stores and book clubs makes "one" happy.

Gayle: ROCK STAR SANTA and his "Rowdy Reindeer Band" were designed and created by me. I do use them, as can be seen on my website (www.gayleckrause.com) for my book presentations. As I mentioned in an earlier thread, being a Director of a Pre-K for 30 years made it a "natural" choice for me. Other authors I know do power point presentations, lectures, slides, etc... As an author you should use whatever format you feel most comfortable with.

Gayle: If you have never done creative dramatics with children before, I wouldn't think your story presentations would be the place to start. In most cases the publishing company "publishes" the books. Everything else is up to you.

Gayle: Good luck with your poetry. One word about ROCK STAR SANTA, unless the librarian bought it from Scholastic Book Clubs, it won't be there. If you'd like to purchase it, you may download the See Saw Scholastic Book CLub form from Scholastic website and order it online.

Jan: For anyone who would like to see Gayle's book cover in the Scholastic flyer, you can see it here http://www.teacher.scholastic.com/clubs/clubpdfs/dec2008/seesaw1208news.pdf It's pretty nifty.

Gayle: Every publisher works on a different schedule. Some buy stories two to three years in advance, some one year in advance. My experience with Scholastic was a quick turnaround. I submitted in January, 2007, got an email in February 2007 asking if they could hold it until the summer. In July I got the call that they wanted it. I signed the contract in November, 2007 and I received my copies in October 2008. It officially went on sale December 1, 2008.

Gayle: The category of book you write dictates the word limit. Picture books usually have a better chance if they are under 1,000 words. MG and YA follow the word limits for the genre.

Gayle: I believe that some small publishers prefer you to submit manuscripts and illustrations, but that is rare. The major publishing houses will assign the illustrator for the manuscript. There are some husband and wife teams, and sister teams, but they, too, are the exception. I asked this exact same question at my first SCBWI meeting, A husband and wife team were guest speakers and they said the wife had to submit her manuscript and the husband had to submit his portfolio to the same editor. They could not submit it together because the editor might like the story, but not the pictures, or the pictures, and not the story, ultimately leading to a rejection for both.

Gayle: To my knowledge you are only limited by your imagination. I’ve critiqued Christmas stories with gingerbread cookies and woodland elves, as main characters.

Gayle: I’m living proof that they do. ROCK STAR SANTA is my first picture book.

Gayle: If by your question you mean a writer with absolutely no publishing credits, I don't think I can honestly answer that question. I have many writer friends. Of all of us that started together, and that would be about fifteen of us, only three have books published to date. We all, however, started with magazine credits. And various members of our group have won prestigious writing contests. Some have acquired agents. Each writer heads down the writing path by various methods. In my opinion, you need to build a publishing credit history and children's magazines are a great place to start.

Gayle: I did not use an agent for this book deal. Some authors feel you do not need an agent for picture books, others do. It’s strictly a personal preference.

Gayle: I did not frame my first book contract, although it is hanging on my bulletin board.

Gayle: It varies monthly. I usually send out more in the summer (longer days, more time to write and submit). During the holidays, I submit very little. For one thing the publishing houses are very slow during this time, for another, I have family obligations and house trimming to do, as most of us do. I find I write more during the winter and submit in the summer, but if something online catches my eye with a deadline, I'll write specifically for that and submit. When I submit query letters I send five at a time. Manuscripts, depends on submission criteria, poems, usual only to the specific target it was written for. There is no formula for successful submission practices, but there is one hindrance. YOU MUST SEND YOUR WORK OUT.

Gayle: Hi Zebra, That's where storyboards help. Usually, I just write until I have no more to say or the story ends in my head. I get a definite closure when this happens. It's like my brain shuts down and let's me know the story is finished. Then, I check for pacing and I break it into pages as I think it should be. If the last line on each page is a "turnable moment," then I'm happy. If not, then I must tweak the division of the manuscript to fit the illustrations I see on the page. (even though they're not really there).

Gayle: However, since I am NOT the illustrator, this only serves to prove to me that I have enough pages and they are illustratable. When the manuscript actually gets in the illustrator's hands, they may have a totally different take on my words and they break it up according to their vision. You must remember a picture book is a 50-50 proposition, and so even if the finished product is not the way I visualized it, it's the illustrator's book, too, and they get to let their creativity shine to make my words come to life. The finished product is usually great. About whether it's a knack or a learned process, I can only speak for myself. Art was my minor in college and I see the pictures as I write. I am very right-brained, so I guess that helps. I can't speak for a left-brained writer, but my guess would be they would have a difficult time seeing their words as illustrations before they are actually drawn. Hope I didn't offend any of you left-brainers out there.

Gayle: No. You cannot choose a different illustrator. Your editor does the choosing. A "turnable moment" means that the story ends at a place where the reader eagerly wants to see what happens next, so they turn the page to find out. An illustrator does not change your words, just where the sentences break. There was once instance in my story where I did have to change one word because of the illustrations, but it was only an adjective and did not change any part of the story. If I could draw well enough to illustrate, then the book would be laid out my way. Since I'm a better writer than illustrator, that becomes the illustrator's expertise.

Gayle: Teaching and writing are the two things that called me. "I write what I teach, and I teach what I write."

Gayle: I would say I have explored many avenues at least once...several unique ones come to mind.

• a. spelunking (exploring dark caves beneath the ground)
• b. archeological exploration of a Neolithic village in Italy (dating 10,000 years before Christ)
• c. scuba diving in the Virgin Islands without knowing how to swim (a bit stupid on my part, but I was young)
• d. acting in community theater

Gayle: I do like to discover the "hows" and "whys" of things. Sometimes those discoveries turn into stories, though I do not write nonfiction.

Gayle: No. Creative nonfiction is a close as I get to nonfiction.

Gayle: If I interpret your question correctly you are asking for a comparison of non-fiction and creative non-fiction. My best answer would be: Non-fiction is true and the author is just retelling the facts in a narrative. Creative non-fiction allows the author to make up fictional characters to convey the facts so the piece reads like fiction.

Jan: Just a note (because not all publishers define these terms the same way), some publishers define Creative Nonfiction as strictly nonfiction but using "fiction techniques" such as incorporating dialogue from journals or biographies as if they were part of a scene...using sensory detail gleaned from research from the time, things like that. So always be careful that you and the publisher/editor/agent are talking about the same thing -- many allow NO made-up characters or made-up dialogue in creative nonfiction. For some publishers, the introduction of any form of actual fiction makes it either informational fiction or historical fiction and creative nonfiction is for actual nonfiction with creative elements gleaned from really intense and extensive research. That's why some folks define "Magic School Bus" as creative nonfiction and some as information fiction -- and you can actually get some rip snorting arguments going over it in some writing groups and library discussions groups because I've heard them.

Jan: And for "better" -- my experience having read a lot of these biography picture books lately is this: Trade publishers (Scholastic would be an example) tend to like picture books that focus on scenes/incidents and make them read very much like fiction. In the trade picture books I see, the incidents are written a lot like fictional scenes. Now, sometimes it looks to me like the quotes are definitely from research and sometimes it looks like the quotes might be "guessed at" from context. The books themselves don't say. Educational publishers, on the other hand, are sticklers for absolutely not expanding beyond the sources. So you get quotes but they make it clear where the quotes are from. For example, I've seen these two kinds of approaches.

Jan: In Trade picture books: "You don't never give up now," Babe Ruth's grandma said, pulling the boy close to her sickbed. "Don't never let them make you quit." The boy nodded a solemn agreement and he never broke his word.

Jan: In Educational picture books: "My grandmother told me never to give up," Babe Ruth said in an interview after his last game. "Not to ever let anyone make me quit. And I never did."

Jan: Do you see the difference? They both basically use a real remark, but the first puts it in a more author created scene while the second keeps it strictly tied to the actual source of the quote.

Jan: For picture books, editors like to see quotes, for sure, and lots of action -- that's what kids like. That's why you'll see quotes and action is most all Highlights stories too. But Highlights will take the "educational publisher" approach to them most of the time.

Jan: Oh, okay. Ben and Me is definitely fiction. You can't have talking mice and call it anything like nonfiction. Maybe historical fiction.

Jan: it's really like most any book, if the publisher loves it and it's in the realm of genre/age/etc that they publish, they buy it.

Gayle: This is kind of complicated. We started out with five people in 2003. Of those five, three of us have books published, two of us have agents, two have gone on to get higher educational degrees in Creative Writing or writing for children. One of those two attended Vermont College for her masters in children's writing, the other has left children's writing for poetry and is now an English college professor. Yet, a third, one of the published members has moved on to Chick Lit. As parts of that group went in different directions new members joined from a base group that I met at a Highlights Foundation workshop in 2004.

Gayle: Of those members, one has gone on to illustrating children's books, one was runner up in the Woman's Day picture book writing contest in 2006 and is a regular contributor to American Baby magazine (writes for mother's, not children), and one has an agent, but no sale. We meet three times a year, since we're all over the East coast. Finally, two more joined just this past year and I meet with them every month,since they're local. Of those two, one of them was a winner of the Highlights Fiction Contest last year. All of us, from the first members, to the newest, are published in children's magazines. My very first publication was a story for "Chicken Soup for the Kid's Soul 2" in March 2006. I had been writing since 2003, but I was still teaching, so my writing happened mainly in the summer.

Gayle: The bottom line is it is important to surround yourself with other writers to give you feedback on your work before you send it out.

Gayle: My favorite part about writing ROCK STAR SANTA was the actual rhyming process while I wrote it. I did not write it at a retreat. I wrote it on my couch one morning while my husband was asleep. I did not get to meet the illustrator, (Will Terry) though we have communicated through email. One of the girls in my poetry critique group did sit next to him at lunch at an SCBWI conference. So I have never met him, but one of my friends has. In this writing community, it's really as small world.

Gayle: A standard picture book is 32 pages. You can make a dummy book for your own satisfaction to see if your manuscript divides up well. My book had 15 double spreads and 2 half spreads.

Gayle: The title page and the last page were single pages. The rest of the book was illustrated in double pages. (left and right pages were part of the same scene)

Gayle: I am not familiar with an MG picture book. It sounds like an "educational publishing" effort. I can see it in math, science and history, but I can't honestly say, as a teacher or an author, I have never seen anything I consider an MG picture book. Story anthologies, poem collections, but not a middle grade picture book. Even a "math" picture book I reviewed for older children is still the a picture book with with 32 pages, which includes the back matter. Can you give me an example of what you are talking about?

Gayle: I have no idea. I see you are writing in Canada. Maybe things there run differently. I'm afraid I can't answer your question.

Gayle: The only thing I can think of that would restrict you is the subject matter. There are plenty of picture books with talking animals, talking flowers etc... Characters can be pretty much anything as long as they are age appropriate. Same for the subject matter. You wouldn't want to write a story about geometry for a three year old, other than naming the simple shapes. That's not to say you can't do a math picture book, it just needs to be developmentally appropriate for the age of the reader. Same goes for history and science.

Jan: As someone who has written fiction for different sorts of publications...what do you think it the main differences in style and structure between writing a story and writing a picture book? I know our students are always wanting more insight into that.

Gayle: I’m not so sure there is that much difference in the structure of a story for a novel vs. a picture book structure.
1. Both need a story arc.
a. beginning
b. introduce the MC, the setting, the conflict, and the goal.
2. Both should show, not tell
a. use words to describe the feeling. Do not state it.
1.) DO - Ben slumped in his seat. He gripped his pencil with super strength and he kept his eyes on his paper. There was no way he was going to chance another outbreak from Mr. Jones.
2.) DON’T – Ben was mad at Mr. Jones for embarrassing him in front of the whole class.
3. Word choice is important in both.
a. words should be “strong” in both, especially verbs.
1.) darted – not ran
2. ) waddled – not walked
b. “weak” verbs are common words like walk, run, saw.
1.) use thesuraus to discover (not find) stronger verbs 4. Both need strong main characters.
a. reader needs to like your character in order for them to be invested in his story.

Gayle: Where they do differ is in length. Picture books are actually harder to write than novels because each word counts. There can be no “filler” words. American picture book editors are looking for short, succinct stories (with an arc). Many guidelines request stories under 800 words, so each word must be precise in presenting the story. Hope that's an easy explanation.

chippy: I see you mentioned that you haven't written nonfiction. Have you ever thought about writing it, or started and then stopped, and would you ever write nonfiction?

Gayle: I did write nonfiction when I branched out to other genres. After several attempts I either, a.) could not meet the word limit because of my personality quirk of wanting to be thorough in everything I do. I always had too many words. b.) as a reader, I never liked nonfiction, therefore as a writer, even when I had completed the research (which I love), the actual manuscript just didn't excite me. That's when I turned to creative nonfiction and historical fiction.

Gayle: Excitement about one's writing is key in this business. You must "LOVE" what you write. I had this discussion with my editor, who is also a writer, and her common sense advice was to "write what you love to read." If an author has a YA voice, then they should write YA and not try to force a picture book. If your prose flows naturally, and you have a hard time with beats, let's say in music, then your poetry will be forced. Find your voice and follow it. I definitely do not have a nonfiction voice.

chippy: Would you ever consider going back to nonfiction due to the feeling that it is the more wanted genre these days. I suppose what I'm asking, is, would you do the research required to do nonfiction, or are you more likely to just do what you are doing now?

Gayle: I never say never, but I'm pretty confident I would not pursue nonfiction writing. Granted, it is a more favorable genre these days, and seems to get published more easily, but for me it just doesn't deliver the "feeling" of pride in my work that my more creative efforts do. As I mentioned in another post, I love to do the research, I just don't like the straight factual writing. I know many writers who make a living off of writing nonfiction. It's a personal preference.

Pat: How far in advance should a writer send in a season fiction or non-fiction article?

Gayle: Since publishing houses and magazines fill up their book lists and seasonal editions way in advance, my guess would be "anytime." There's no way of knowing whether your story will be picked up for the coming year, the next year, or two years out.

Jan: Thanks for joining our Merry Band for the last three days and answering our questions. We really appreciate it and we think you're super. I hope you have a Merry Rock Star Christmas.

Spiritwalker: Thanks for joining and Merry Christmas.

Sandy: Thanks for coming Gayle, your answers have been insightful.

Gayle: You are welcome.

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