Jan is Jan Fields, moderator of this interview/workshop, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. While red signals our guest speaker's responses. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked of our speaker.

Jan: Today we welcome Fiona Bayrock to the Writer's Retreat where she'll field all your questions about writing nonfiction for magazines and books. Fiona is a guru of kid friendly nonfiction who does an amazing job at zeroing in on subjects and approaches that kids love. I'm just so excited about having you here, Fiona. You know I'm a big fan and I'm looking forward to hearing you share about your work and about how you make nonfiction magic.

Fiona: Aw, shucks...thanks, Jan. I'm a big fan of yours, too. We should start our own mutual admiration club! I'm looking forward to chatting with everyone this week. Jan says you guys ask the. best. questions. so I'm psyched.

Jan: can you tell the tale of how BUBBLE HOMES AND FISH FARTS came to be?

Fiona: I wanted to write the first 1000 words of a new book to enter in the 2004 Smartwriters.com contest. I don't usually enter contests, but the lineup of editors scheduled to look at the winning manuscripts was too good to resist. So I dived (dove?) into my idea file to see what I could come up with. This file folder (several, actually) contains a mishmash of newspaper and magazine clippings, hand-scribbled notes and other bits about things I find cool and might want to write about some day. Since my forgettery is better than my memory, this is my way of keeping all those great ideas safe and accessible.

Fiona: In the file, I found an old Scientific American article about dolphin bubble rings, and a picture of a spider living inside his underwater bubble home photocopied from a book I'd used while researching an earlier project. In my writing, I try to connect information in new ways, and the bubble connection between such different animals certainly fit that. I thought of the spittlebugs in my garden and recent science news about herring farts, and then wondered how many other animals use bubbles. After a little detective work, I discovered that many other animals do use bubbles, and in some downright amazing ways, too. Bingo. There was my idea.

Fiona: The contest deadline was fast approaching, so I picked the most interesting animals that were easiest to research, wrote the thousand words I needed to enter the contest, and sent it in. It placed third in the nonfiction category. One of the judging editors was interested in possibly publishing it, but she envisioned major changes that would have required dozens of interviews and other extensive primary research, which I was willing to do, but not without a contract (she wanted me to do it all on spec). About the same time, I received a lovely rejection on a manuscript from a Charlesbridge editor I'd met when we were both speaking at the Alaska-SCBWI conference. She was open to seeing more of my work anytime. I sent her the first half of Bubble Homes and Fish Farts, she loved it, and the rest—as they say—is history.

YAYA: I love your story. Thank you, Fiona, for sharing it with us. I love hearing the inspiration behind the "Everything." BTW, Fiona, I especially enjoy some of the ways you describe emotions and problems. Case in point: 'forgettery' is so complete and leaves no room for questioning further. Thanks.

YAYA: Do you only write nonfiction?

Fiona: I write mostly nonfiction. that's my first love and what I put most of my energies into. But I've also sold poetry to Highlights and short fiction.

YAYA: Do you think you might write a book of poetry?

Fiona: Yup. It's a WIP. I also enjoy writing nonfiction in rhyme.

YAYA: Also, have you ever considered compiling your articles into a book?

Fiona: Every once in a while. But to be successful, it would need a strong underlying theme tying it all together, and my writing is all over the map subject-wise and format-wise, so it doesn't really lend itself to that.

YAYA: Uuuuuummmm, wouldn't the fact that so many of your articles are 'science-related' be enough to tie them together?

Fiona: That's not enough of a connection. I would need to narrow the age range, subject and style of the pieces, perhaps have a collection of just "news items" or "cool ocean stories" or "adaptation marvels" or something. EVen with my body of work, I don't have enough of any one thing to do that.

Chippy: Fiona, for those of us that find nonfiction unappetising, what suggestions do you have for making the nonfiction journey a productive and successful one? One that will produce a publishable article or book, and light that spark within us.

Fiona: Indeed, early nonfiction for kids was boring, didactic, and dry, but it's changed a lot, even in the last ten years. What I'd suggest is get your hands on a stack of good recent nonfiction (check awards short lists, ask your librarian). Read and observe how the authors made things lively and interesting. Similarly analyzing the articles a magazine has recently published will increase your chances of acceptance there, too. In terms of that spark, follow your interests. When authors write about things about which they're passionate, it shows in the final work, and usually that translates into more success with publishers

YAYA: Do you have a 'Set' time that you like to write; say, 4:00 in the morning or, 9:00 at night? Or, do you prefer to set a 'Word Goal' for yourself? Also, do you write everyday or, only certain days?

Fiona: No, my writing happens at all times. I don't do well writing late at night, but otherwise anything goes. No word count goal, but I'm very deadline driven. One of the advantages of being my own boss is I get to set my own work hours, so I fit it in around the schedules of my busy family...getting teens to and from university and rehearsals, etc. I often end up doing writing-related activities on Saturday afternoons since that's a time everyone but me is away. Some writers need more structure and scheduling, but the flexibility works well for me.

Deb: Fiona, do you have a central database of "reviewers" or experts who can review your finished articles for accuracy?

Fiona: No, Deb, I write on such a wide range of subjects that I rarely use the same expert twice. If you specialize in a narrow niche---say hockey writing or a particular time in history, for example, you may find it useful to establish a stable of reviewers, though.

DEB: When you were first starting out, how did you locate these folks?

Fiona: I usually find them while researching. Whatever the subject, names seem to pop up as "the" guys (and gals!) on the subject. Right from the beginning I reached high, and went for the best. In my experience, most experts are thrilled to share their work with kids. I've rarely been turned down. For example, the lead scientists on the two major theories about neanderthals both granted me an interview, and I chatted with the lead scientist for the Beagle Mission to Mars...he squeezed me in via cell phone while en route to his lab in the days leading up to liftoff. Sometimes an expert doesn't pop up, which is what happened for the snail in Bubble Homes and Fish Farts. In that case, I joined a yahoogroups list of shelled-critter scientists and posted a request. A specialist from the Natural History Museum of London responded...whoa, can't ask for better than that!

DEB: Also, I have been researching nonfiction writing possibilities and I hear about "prime sources"...what is that? How do I find out what the primary source is for a particular topic?

Fiona: Basically...documents, records, recordings, actual items that go back to the original source of the information...that were created at the time something happened---ship logs, artifacts, government census records, diaries, interviews, letters, photographs, video & audio recordings of the subject, research data, etc. If your subject is alive and you talk with him/her, there's a great primary source. Primary sources will vary from topic to topic. Keep your eyes peeled for them, speculate about what primary sources might be available for your topic and poke around for them. The American Library Association has an excellent webpage about defining, finding, and evaluating primary sources on the internet: http://www.ala.org/ala/mgrps/divs/rusa/sections/history/resources/pubs/usingprimarysources/index.cfm#defining

DEB: I've been trying to get the most recent info for each piece, so I don't go any further back than say, 10 years...is this the wrong approach?

Fiona: Go back as far as you have to for primary sources. For secondary sources---e.g. books others have written about your topic---keeping your sources to as recent as possible is a good idea. It really depends on the topic, though...how much it's changed over time and how much has been written about it. Some areas of science, for example, change a lot over time and going back even a year or a few months will yield wrong information (how many planets are in our solar system today???). Other areas---a lot of history and basic plant & animal anatomy, for example---haven't changed in decades, so sticking with a 10-year rule or a 5-year rule would be fine.

DEB: Also, I have no experience in the various fields, just an outrageous curiosity and a 7-year-old who is always asking interesting questions, so I feel uncomfortable approaching major markets like Geographic Kids. Any advice for a newbie?

Fiona: Lucky you! Outrageous curiosity is great thing to have. I have no experience in the fields about which I write, either, but the curiosity and the accompanying need to share what I find interesting drives my writing, and I always have my work reviewed by experts in the field to make sure I haven't missed something only someone immersed in the topic would know. Geographic Kids is a tough market to break into. It's considered a senior market, and you'll have better luck if you establish a good clip file before approaching them. But there are lots of other prestigious magazines that accept work from newbies. Those of us with bulging clip files today were all newbies once; an editor took a chance on us with no experience, and you can break in, too. :^) Things that will help: find an unusual topic or fresh angle, do solid research, know the magazine you're targeting, show you can write (samples or clips), and present yourself professionally.

YAYA: Is it something that we should be doing; having experts look at our work to 'Fine Tune' it?

Fiona: Not to fine tune it; that's the author's responsibility---but having an expert review a polished piece that's as well-written and accurate as you can possibly make it is a good idea. Because I'm only a temporary expert on whatever I'm writing about, I may unintentionally introduce an error. Having my work reviewed by an expert gives me peace of mind that I haven't missed something only someone immersed in the subject would know.

YAYA: When you were offered your first book contract, I suspect you were already published, but did the book contract come as a surprise?

Fiona: It wasn't really a surprise because the editor and I had been talking about it for some time, hashing out ideas, shaping things. The publishing business can be SO s-l-o-w. I had lots of time to get used to the idea before the offer actually came. There was much rejoicing and celebrating, but it wasn't a surprise.

ROBERTA: Can you give any advice for someone who wants to write for older kids? Seems like many science/nonfiction books for kids who just want read on a topic (not targeted for school use) are either picture books or adult books, without a lot in between. I am missing something? (BTW, my child just asked me last week whether fish could fart. You are good!)

Fiona: Roberta, you're probably looking right at it and just not realizing it. When fiction moves from younger readers to older readers, the format changes radically from large heavily illustrated picture book to compact non-illustrated novel, but most mg/ya nonfiction is illustrated—usually in a more sophisticated style than for younger readers...more photos and original documents, for example—but still with a visual component, and frequently in a larger more picture-book-like format, so it's not as obvious a shift. Look for books by Loree Griffin Burns (and the other Scientists in the Field books), Tanya Lee Stone, Russell Freedman, Catherine Thimmesh, Carla McClafferty, and Kelly Milner Halls to name a few (oh, man, I know I'm going to get into trouble for leaving out names here!).

YAYA: Do you write for the M/G children also or, do you pretty much stay within the picture book group with your writing?

Fiona: My magazine writing runs the gamut from K-12. I've sold super-simple pieces to Highlights High Five, and on the other end of the spectrum, I've written many articles for Odyssey Magazine, which is about as close to adult writing as you can get without actually writing for adults. Most of my work has been in the age 6-10 range. That seems to be where I'm most comfortable. My books fall into that range, too. Although, having said that, my latest project is definite mg territory...denser text, deeper treatment, more sophisticated topic.

COLORADOKATE: I often read something interesting in an adult book or magazine or newspaper and think,"Oh, that'd make a great article for kids." But when I go to research it, I can't seem to find anything new, though I may find sources to back up what I first read. My dilemma: I feel as if, since I'm not combining that first tidbit with anything new, I'd be essentially plagiarizing if I wrote it up as a kids' article--that I'd be really just retelling the original source in a kid-friendly way. Do you know of any way to avoid that problem?

Fiona: Story ideas aren't protected by law, the arrangement of the words in telling a story *is*. So, it would be plagiarizing if you took chunks of another author's text and claimed them as your own writing, but to write this story in your own words, especially for a different audience, is perfectly fine. The book or article that inspired you was written by an author who found her info from other sources, or perhaps discovered it herself. Either way, you can use her writing as one of *several* sources in writing your own work.

Fiona: Many of my science articles for kids come from news stories about discoveries. I use adult news stories as my source material, but put my own spin on it, use my own wording and style, fresh similes and references, etc., to create an original work on the same topic. If possible, I sometimes contact the expert or subject for fresh input, too. Go for it, Kate!

COLORADOKATE: Thanks, Fiona; that was totally clear. I think I sometimes try to make things harder than they need to be!

CALIMOM: I am a science fan...when others explain it to me and I really haven't given NF a fair shot, but it seems that when I try, I have problems finding any kind of inspiration or ideas to write about.

Fiona: The best advice I can give is to follow your heart. What interests you? What topics excite you to the point of wanting to learn more? Try reading adult science magazines and watching nature shows and see what fascinating stuff pops up. And is the problem finding ideas, or finding them when you want them (my biggest problem)? I keep an idea file in which I put clippings and notes about anything that crosses my path that I think I might want to write about one day. Then when I want an idea, I flip through the file. Sometimes connections become apparent between bits found at different times, which is how my book about animal bubbles was born.

CALIMOM: I also run into the same problem as Kate...originality. Once I look it up, it seems used over and over again already. Any ideas? How do you find one little fascinating fact and expand upon it? Sorry if this was a rambling question, I too am on the west coast, and just now sitting down with my coffee after a long night with baby boy.

Fiona: That's the trick---finding "one little fascinating fact" and expanding on it. Try narrowing the scope of your topic and/or coming at it from a fresh new angle. Instead of writing about frogs or metamorphosis or endangered frogs or an animal study of frogs (yawn, been done to death), zoom in on one small story about frogs. How about a profile of the frog hospital in Australia, building 'critter crossing' tunnels under roads that intersect frog migration paths, why so many frogs are born with extra legs, how does a frog breathe through its skin, why do frogs come in so many colours. The idea is to think of something about frogs that hasn't been done before. What is it the fiction writers say? There are no new stories, just new ways of telling the same ones.

LAURAMLEE: So, an autobiography would be considered a primary source, right?

Fiona: Sure is. But having said that, it may not be reliable for all of the information it contains. You can count on it as a primary source to represent your subject's opinions and memories, but because memory is a fleeting, morphing, selective thing, what your subject remembers may not match the memories of other people who were at the same event, or even how the event actually happened. So you'll need to support some of the info with other sources.

YAYA: May I suppose that this is one of the reasons nonfiction history is not your particular cup of tea, then? For me, its almost starting to make me 'cringe' at the idea of how many 'hoops' a writer has to jump through to acquire the golden ring, so to speak.

Fiona: No, I don't think that's it. I love the detective work of researching, the challenge of finding the necessary pieces and putting them together the right way, so I think the "hoops of history writing" as you call them would be something I'd actually enjoy. This reminds me of a School Library Journal article you might find interesting: "The Quest for Authenticity:A Writer Reveals How She Finds the Heart of a Story" -- http://www.schoollibraryjournal.com/article/CA6632968.html

YAYA: I really like the art on your website. Did you do the illustrations on the website?

Fiona: No, I'm strictly a stick person artist, I'm afraid. Some of the artwork is from Bubble Homes and Fish Farts (all the fishy stuff) so was done by Carolyn Conahan. The other cartoon work you might recognize as the handiwork of Ruth McNally Barshaw, the brilliance behind the Ellie McDoodle books. Good thing I had her do them before she became famous---I don't think I could afford her rates today!

Carina: I also suddenly realized I love to write non-fiction. But sometimes my vocabulary is to high for kids to understand. Do you have any pionters how to write kid-friendly facts, without sounding like a textbook and how to downsize your vocab?

Fiona: Thanks, Carina! It's tough to maintain that balance sometimes. You don't want to dumb down, yet you want to use language young kids can understand and relate to. When I'm stuck, I find the leveled thesaurus in Alihandra Mogilner's The Children's Writer's Word Book to be a useful tool for choosing words, particularly when I'm writing easy reader type material. It weeds out all the archaic and obviously inappropriate words you'd find in a regular thesaurus.

Fiona: As for writing kid-friendly facts without sounding like a textbook, look for kid-friendly comparisons that will make an image in your readers' heads, and capitalize on the "Ew! Cool! and Phew!" that is so close to the surface in young kids. I once wrote that a particular worm grows as long as a school bus. Great "ew" factor, and not an image anyone is likely to forget soon. One clever author (sorry, I can't remember who!) explained hydraulics as "squirt gun science". More in my article: "Avoiding the 'Huh?'...the Art of Relevant References" - http://www.fionabayrock.com/ARTICLEavoiding_the_huh.htm

ZEBRAKITCHEN: I love the title of your book. It has a nice beat to it. Being an illustrated book, how closely did you work with the illustrator to allow her to draw just the right pictures you were working to portray in words?

Fiona: Thanks, Lynn! I wish titles like that fell from the sky more often. :^)

Fiona: Short answer: we didn't. As is typical for authors and illustrators, all of our communication with each other went through the publisher. Before Carolyn started the initial sketches I sent her a list of visual references from the research I'd done. My editor sent copies of the sketches, and after that, the final art, for me to review for accuracy and feedback. My responses went back through the publisher to Carolyn. Near the end of the process, we emailed a bit about sources for a few of the trickier animals, but that was it until the book had gone to press. Then we went out for supper and compared process stories. That was fun.

Fiona: As an author, you have to let it go and trust that the other team members will put their hearts into their work on the book as you have already done for the text. I was lucky. Carolyn and the design staff at Charlesbridge "got" what I was trying to accomplish and the end result is a perfect marriage of text and illustration. I couldn't be happier with it.

ZEBRAKITCHEN: I appreciate the answer. It seems she did a great job. I would think scientific information is a lot more important to get just right than the artwork for "Sally went to the seashore to buy a seashell" story. I'm glad it worked out for you. Dinner too, what a plus.

Fiona: Exactly. I think if you compared authors of fiction and nonfiction, you'd probably find the nonfiction authors were consulted on the illustrations of their books way more than the fiction authors, for that very reason---to make sure the pictures are accurate.

DEB: The age group that I am targeting is 6-10 and I can tell you from first hand experience, they are definitely into gross and yuckky things. Body humor is huge around our house. I understand the appeal to kids, but I know in picture books, editors have very sharp pens in this area. Now PBs have a younger audience, but toddlers think potty humor is the only humor (again, the voice of experience). So, quick question, how do you take a yucky gross topic and sanitize it ever so rightly so editor and young reader can enjoy?

Fiona: I don't. :^) Instead of choosing a yucky gross topic and trying to sanitize it, I choose a topic and then look for a yucky gross aspect of it (or some other cool factor) to use as a hook, even though the rest of the article or book may focus on the benign. it's kind of like adding a dash of hot sauce to a dish rather than starting with an ultra spicy dish and trying to take the spice out of it. Sometimes a dash is acceptable where a whole dish is too much.

Fiona: Editors---and many parents---do tend to have a low tolerance for potty humour or topics about bodily functions and general grossness, which makes it a tough sell. Personally, I don't enjoy writing about those kinds of topics, so it's not really an issue for me. Ha!...so sayeth the woman who wrote a book with "fart" in the title! Well, the reason I got away with it is because it's a book about bubbles, not a book about farts, so the farting is a very small part of the book, and it's scientifically explained (scientists think the fish do it to communicate, go figure!), so the kids get their laugh, but it doesn't push things too far and become unacceptable to adults.

DEB: Did you have to build up a portfolio of individual articles before you approached an editor with a full blown book?

Fiona: I did start that way, but it's not necessary. Many nonfiction authors go directly to writing books without ever having done magazine work. If you want to get work-for-hire book assignments, a magazine clip file---even a small one---will help. And if you've queried a trade publisher and the editor is on the fence about whether to request your manuscript or proposal, seeing some publication credits might tip things in your favour. But in the end, what you've done before doesn't matter---it's all about the writing. Your manuscript will be judged on its own merits.

DEB: Were they looking for: (1) a variety of markets, (2) only major markets, (3)one subject area where they could consider you an expert? Or was it just your strong writing skills? Or your unique angles to the chosen topic?

Fiona: When you've got clips from several magazines and repeat business among them, it shows you can write publishable material and know how to work with editors. Prospective editors see that as a plus. Online magazines still don't have the same credibility as print magazines; some print magazines are better credits than others. You know which are which. :^) So do editors. Not too much specialization is expected in children's writing. Some writers concentrate on broad areas such as science, history, biography, sports, etc., but even then, it's relatively easy to break into a new area if you have strong writing skills and offer something fresh.

DEB: How long did it take to build up your credentials?

Fiona: In publishing terms, it happened quite quickly. I targeted one magazine at a time, established myself, and then set my sights on the next magazine. By my second year I'd sold my first piece to Highlights and a few other magazines on spec, and was receiving regular assignments from Odyssey, YES Mag and WILD Magazine.

DEB: At what point did you acquire an agent? Or perhaps you never did?

Fiona: I don't have an agent. I searched briefly a few years ago and came close, but in the end, it wasn't a good match. Nonfiction is quirky...it's hard to find a good agent match.

DEB: Most of my nonfiction is currently based on nature/animal items that are on the unusual side of things. I don't consider that hard science, but (depending on the magazine I'm targeting) I can provide hard facts that are interesting and yes, sometimes a little weird or gross. I always try to make it sound awesome, like "how wonderful is THAT?!" because, in fact, I myself find these things pretty cool.

Fiona: You've got a great combination there---approaching subjects from unusual angles, dancing in the weird, and you finding the material cool. Kids can spot fake enthusiasm a mile away, but genuine enthusiasm is catching. Passion shines through in the writing. Show your readers what you find fascinating about your subject in an engaging way, and if you're successful, you will indeed leave them with that sense of awe.

STJOHN: Fiona, many times I am interested in subjects like graphology or acting(for instance), but I can't seem to transfer that interest into a good children's non-fiction article. Is there any way to manually cultivate interest in non-fiction? Also, I've heard that well-written non-fiction can be just as interesting as fiction. Have you found that true?

Fiona: The best way I've found is to get specific. Take a smaller bite of your topic; narrow the focus. It's easier to get excited about specific details than an overarching theme, so take the "acting" theme and zoom in on topic nuggets within it—say, "how you can use that fight with your mom to be a better actor" or "three easy steps to a French accent" or "improv tricks that will keep your audience laughing"—and you've got a nice bite-size topic on which you can hang interesting details. It's the details that will snag the interest of readers, as well as make it more fun for you to write.

Fiona: I've found it absolutely true that non-fiction can be as interesting as fiction. I've read narrative nonfiction with such a well-told story, I have to check and make sure I'm not reading a novel.

YAYA: I don't think I have heard that term, before: narrative nonfiction.

Fiona: A fancy way of saying "nonfiction that tells a story."

BEVG: I have a question. I am a beginning writer. I've just sold one nonfiction article to a parenting magazine. My desire is to write nonfiction for children's magazines. I see that some editors would prefer photos send with NF articles, if you have them. I have written an article on rockets and have a couple of pics to go with it. The pics are the right resolution but are not really professial quality. Should I send photos anyway? If you don't send photos does that put you at a disadvantage? Do you ever send photos with NF articles?

Fiona: Congratulations on your sale! In my experience, most magazine editors expect to have to find photos or art to accompany submitted manuscripts, so submitting photos with articles isn't necessary. It's a nice bonus, but only if the photos are useable. I would advise only submitting pictures that are of publishable quality. Submitting anything less doesn't do the editor any favours, and it puts you in a bad light. If you submit an article that knocks an editor's socks off, she'll find a way to illustrate it. :^) The one exception I can think of right now is if you were writing about a little-known local event. I have heard of an editor rejecting such an article because no photos were available anywhere.

Fiona: I have on occasion suggested sources for photos, but only once have I supplied photos for an article, and those were commissioned at the time the article was assigned. For the rest of my articles, the magazine has found and supplied photos after accepting the article. Good news for you on your rocket piece, though. Most (all?) NASA photos are available for free public use, so space subjects are some of the easiest and cheapest articles to photo-illustrate. Go ahead and submit your killer article without photos.

ZEBRAKITCHEN: How comfortable are publishers in receiving informational pieces that are written in fiction character format as compared to an amusing non-fictional submission?

Fiona: There is a market for it, but you have to be very clear that what you're writing is fiction with nonfiction content, and not try and sell it as nonfiction. For this kind of story to work, the story *must*come*first*. It can't seem didactic. At all. Not even a whiff. And that's the big risk with this type of writing---telling an entertaining story while weaving in the information in a subtle, natural enough way that readers don't feel like you created a story simply as a vehicle for teaching something.

ZEBRAKITCHEN: Thanks for your answer. I am still looking for something more here. Do you know of publishers or sources that use this type of fiction? I have two old, old books, the authors are Alice Corkran, one book is Joan's Adventures at the North Pole and Elsewhere. And another book is, Hitty Her First Hundred Years, by Rachel Field; of which she won the John Newbery Medal. Hitty, has a copyright of 1929 and Joan's Adventure, is 1889. In Joan's Adventures the information about Eskimos and the description of what she saw was quite informative. I was amazed at what I learned. In Hitty the information was better presented, yet still quite informative. I assume this style of educational based writing in fiction was necessary because the market had not opened up to all the non-fiction sources we have now. Do you think that will change?

Fiona: I'm not familiar with those two books specifically, but it sounds as though they're fiction stories with substantive nonfiction content. Is that right? For that there is a market today...as historical fiction or even as part of other fiction genres, such as the mg mystery novel Chasing Vermeer, in which nonfiction content about art and art history is revealed and used by the MCs in solving the mystery, or the new genre of environmental novels where the characters may be dealing with oil spills, threatened species, or deforestation, etc.

Fiona: Publishers will vary depending on the genre of the book. What publishers have published in the past is a good indicator of what they'll acquire, so to find specific publishers interested in this type of book, spend a few hours at the library or your favourite book store looking at books that do what yours does, and note who publishes them.

Fiona: What is frowned upon in today's market is narrative nonfiction about historical figures for whom the author has made up dialogue or scenes that didn't happen. If you use dialogue in your nonfiction writing, be sure to have a source for it...diaries, audio/video, interviews, letters etc.

LAURAMLEE: Do you have a most memorable school visit you can share?

Fiona: I love doing school visits. It's one of the rare times I get feedback from magazine readers (I create my stories so far away from my audience, and often never get any feedback at all). Probably the most memorable visit is the one where I held up a magazine containing an article I'd written, and a 6-year-old shouted, "Hey, I have that one at home!" He could hardly contain his excitement, and then suddenly he settled back on his heels, leaned forward earnestly, and in a subdued tone, eyes wide, and as though we were the only two in the room, slowly asked, "Can a worm *really* be longer than a school bus?" It was a reference I'd used in the article he had at home. One look at the awe in his face, sparkle in his eyes, and his totally engaged posture, and my heart went "gallump". This child, this one reader, was full of wonder and awe, was engaged and curious, and he was thinking about his world, in reaction to something I had written. It was an amazing, humbling, gratifying, moment that I will never forget. Whenever I get frustrated at the business, this moment puts things back in perspective.

YAYA: Do you take any kind of visual aids or anything like that when you visit a class or a school?

Fiona: I usually take along a taxidermied beaver, a canoe paddle, and beaver chewed sticks, in addition to a big rolling suitcase full of things to demonstrate my various writing techniques. This includes publishing bits (manuscripts, research files, signatures, art sketches, final art, magazines I've written for), plus a variety of interesting props ranging from pinecones the size of a pineapple, grape, & pickle; household objects to turn a teacher into a beaver; a beaver skull, etc. Props help keep things sensory and active.

LAURAMLEE: How do you bring to life a historical nonfiction character without just 'telling' about her?

Fiona: The same way you bring a contemporary character to life---by "showing". Use sensory details...lots of 'em. When writing a fictional story, you pluck the character's actions and setting details from your imagination. When writing about an historical subject, that information already exists, you just have to find it. Sometimes the info is readily available, sometimes you have to really dig for it.

Fiona: Read everything you can about the person. If you're really lucky, your subject has left diaries or journals that chronicle the events of his/her life firsthand. Quotes taken from a subject's journal can be used as thoughts or dialogue, which is a good way to shift from "telling" to "showing". Sometimes you can find journals written by people in your subject's life to corroborate events described by your subject and give you another perspective and further clues about him/her. Often a journal will contain enough information that you have the bones to write accurate scenes depicting events in the subject's life. You may need to do more detective work to get the setting details, though...

Fiona: Look for old photographs or paintings of where your character's story takes place. Let's say you know your subject walked down a specific street in London on a specific day in history. Images of what that street looked like at that time will help you fill in details---Cobblestone streets? If so, what does travelling on cobblestone sound like? Is it dusty? Was the sound of horses so loud that people would have to stop a conversation and wait until horses passed? Were there curbs, sidewalks, covered or not (was this the age where, uh, "stuff" would fall from second story windows without warning?). Research what happened in that part of town at that time. Three blocks from the wharf could mean the smell of fish was overpowering on certain days, for example. Include as much sensory info as you can. Official weather records are extensive, allowing you to find out exactly what the weather was like on a specific day in history...whether it was a clear night, and even what phase the moon was in.

Fiona: The events you choose are important, too. Try and come up with some fresh ones not written about before. You might write about one particular moment, or you might choose events that together give a picture of your subject's entire life. Kids like to read about other kids, so pay special attention to finding a few funny, quirky, pivotal events in your subject's childhood...something your readers will be able to relate to.

YAYA: Is there anything special you do to prepare yourself before you begin writing? Perhaps, you have some things you do to prepare mentally or just some things that you consider 'Good Luck?'

Fiona: Nope. Just plain old "Butt in Chair". Oh, wait, I do like to have a cup of coffee at hand, but--hee hee--that's probably not what you were thinking of. ;^)

YAYA: What do you mean, you lived in the subarctic?

Fiona: It's the area just south of the Arctic Circle, so it's not officially considered true "Arctic", but the climate is pretty much the same. I lived in Yellowknife, Northwest Territories. I loved living there. The only reason we moved back south was to be near family. If someone gave me a plane ticket and told me I could go back and my whole family would come, too, I'd leave tomorrow. It's a dry cold you can dress for. The people are wonderful. Winter is beautiful and bright, with sunny blue skies during the day, and northern lights at night. My husband worked for the territorial government and I had babies. And truthfully, I'm colder on the damp west coast than I ever was up north.

LOUISA: Is it always easier for you to write about girls than it is to write about boys? I like to write about boys and girls. I find it easier to write about boys than girls!

Fiona: I'm comfortable writing about either.

LOUISA: When you're really good at writing fictional stories and you want to switch to writing something else, do you always have to receive special training for it?

Fiona: Many of the writing skills you've developed in fiction writing will come in handy in whatever new area you'd like to try next, but whenever authors switch to a genre they've never written before, usually that requires learning additional skills—sometimes only a few, sometimes many. It doesn't have to be formal learning in a classroom, though. It could be learning with a mentor, going through a self-study program, or simply reading everything you can about it (including lots of examples of the genre you'd like to write), and lots of practice, practice, practice.

LOUISA: *Grins.* That sounds like what Megan McDonald told me. Read, read, read!. Thanks for the advice, Ms. Fiona!

Fiona: Oh, yes, Ms. Louisa, "Read, read, read" is one of the best things you can do for your writing. It's amazing how the brain absorbs technique and structure as you read dozens or hundreds of books in your genre. And when you find writing that's particularly wonderful, try and analyze why...what did the author do that was so effective? Then you can apply those same techniques to your own writing.

YAYA: Do you feel that you have to use exact and proper grammar to write nonfiction for children or, do editors seem to allow more comfortable and conversational speech? As an example, do you think that editors would only accept, "There is going to be a lot of lava flow if the volcano erupts"? Or, do you feel that the relaxed speech of daily conversation would be just as acceptable? For instance, "There's gonna' be lots of lava flow if the volcano erupts."

Jan: In general, editors don't like invented words like "gonna" in nonfiction when a perfectly good work already exists to be used there. [Yeah, I know I'm not Fiona] But I wanted to mention another thing. In more sentences, you should search hard for a better way than to use "there is" or "there are" or "there was" or "there were" -- as in any writing, flat vague constructions will suck the life out of you cheery bright prose.

YAYA: Pardon my 'Brain Drain,' but do you mind expounding on this? Really, I'm not being a 'wise-acre.' I truly don't quite understand what you mean by flat vague construction. Does that mean I need to leave out "there is" or "there are" or "there was" or "there were" from my writing?

Jan: "There" is a kind of nonspecific pronoun and "are/is/was/were" are verbs without movement...so when you combine them you create a sentence that begins with a word that doesn't say anything specifically followed by a verb that gives your sentence no push. Think of your verbs as being little motors...for the most part, they provide the power of your sentence. So, if you can tinker with a sentence a bit and get the same information and the same clarity, without the nonspecific pronoun and non-moving verb, then you're going to be better off.

Jan: BUT, sometimes (really really rarely) the sentence really NEEDS to say "There were" -- so don't take any writing suggestion and apply it automatically. Instead, see things like "there were" as flags...you see the flag, you pause and ask yourself -- is this the right spot for a "there were" of can I get more out of this sentence without losing anything? Usually you're better off to change - not always, but usually.

Jan: Most writing comes down to control. When you make every choice for your sentences very purposefully, then you're in control. Now, having said that...don't let it hinder your actually writing. Watch for flags at the polishing stage rather than trying not to let them come out through your fingers as you type. You will usually want to polish out a "there were" but don't shakle your creative energy by trying not to ever put one on the page in the first place.

Jan: Now...I'm going to go mumble in the corner so Fiona doesn't swat me with a farting fish for pontificating during her workshop.

Fiona: Jan wrote: [Yeah, I know I'm not Fiona] ...but you could play me on TV. :^D Nah, no swatting from this sector. You're always welcome, Jan. Your explanation of "there is" "there are" is excellent. I cut them whenever I can. Without them, you get to the action quicker and with more punch, and that makes the writing so much richer and more active.

Fiona: And on Yaya's grammar question: Yes. Generally, most editors will want you to keep things grammatically correct, but a casual writing style is often welcome because kids can relate to it. When writing for kids, you can write in a conversational voice, sprinkle in a little onomatopoeia, and include ellipses, dashes & sentence fragments sparingly here and there, in a way you wouldn't be allowed to in formal writing for adults. Writing in complete sentences doesn't have to mean stilted, though. It's amazing what you can accomplish just by varying sentence length and using a mix of sentence types.

Fiona: As per Jan's "there is" explanation, dropping "there" and making "lava" the subject will create a stronger, more visual sentence. I don't think I've ever used the word "gonna", but if I were to use it here, I would probably say something like, "She's gonna blow! And when she does, a wall of lava will ooze right through the middle of Cityville, destroying everything in its path." I do occasionally start sentences with "and" or "but" (I'm sure my high school English teacher is rolling over in her grave), and I use conversational words like "Yikes!" "Eek!" or "No kidding!" when warranted, but it depends on the publisher. What a publisher has recenlty published will give you a good feel for its style preferences.

Fiona: By the way, I love onomatopoeia. It's a great way to make an instant sensory connection with readers. As soon as they read "clang", "buzz", or "fwap-fwap-fwap-fwap" (like a certain tree frog with which I'm acquainted ) they hear "clang", "buzz", or "fwap-fwap-fwap-fwap" in their heads.

YAYA: Do you think someone who only has an interest in science and no degree could write nonfiction science successfully? I was never good at science in school, but since meeting my husband, I have begun to not only understand, but enjoy science and history, as well. My husband is a wonderful teacher, although he's not a teacher.

Fiona: For sure, just like, um, me? :^) I don't have a science degree and I've published science books and magazine articles with several different Canadian and U.S. publishers. They cared that I could research and write well for a young audience, that I used reliable (often primary) sources, and that I was easy to work with and met deadlines, but not whether I had a science degree. As I think about it, I don't think an editor's ever asked if I had one. It's easier for a good writer to learn how to research than it is for a good researcher to learn how to write, so the writing is the more critical skill to hire. Something well-written can always be sent to an expert for review; something accurate may not be salvageable writing-wise. So, yes, go for it. Don't let a lack of degree hold you back.

YAYA: Do you mind explaining this comment from your website? Quote: "She also brings the "Ew!", "Cool!", and "Phew!" of science to kids and teens, in over 60 magazine articles, as well as in educational databases and literacy & science curriculum resources." It is intriguing and I would love to know just what it means.

Fiona: Sure. It's my way of saying: "Think like a kid!" "Tap your inner kid." and "What would a kid find interesting?" When deciding how to approach a topic or narrow it down, I look for a hook---something that will grab kids' attention and keep them reading. Often it's some aspect of the subject that gets a kid saying "Ew". "It's so icky, I can't stop looking at it" translates into "I've gotta read more about this" and bingo, I've hooked the reader. Same for "Cool!" and "Phew!"

YAYA: Kinda' like grabbing a reader with that first sentence, then? These are some good points. I'm sure they will help me as I begin writing nonfiction. Again, thank you so much for all the good advice.

Fiona: Exactly. I'll use it to draw the reader in. As well as "Ew" "Cool" and "Phew", I might use humour, wordplay or just plain ol' trickery in my introduction that way.

YAYA: What was your first book and what 'Triggered' the idea?

Fiona: The first book I pitched to an editor was about animals with suckers, a topic that grew from a magazine article I'd written on the subject. It was fascinating stuff and I'd had to leave so much on the cuttingroom floor when paring down the article that I wanted to do a book about it. The sucker idea evolved into a book on animal adaptations, so maybe I'll still get to do a sucker book one day!

YAYA: Was that a book you did not get to do, then?

Fiona: Not yet. It still sits in my filing cabinet in the form of three very large research files and a binder.

YAYA: Which was the first book you actually saw published?

Fiona: The Ocean Explorer's Handbook published by Scholastic---a 48-page book for kids in about Grades 4-6. It was the first in a 12-book series written by various authors and was sold via subscription only. Each month subscribers would receive a book and a science kit of accompanying activities.

LAURAMLEE: What is the most rewarding thing to you as a writer?

Fiona: You know, I can honestly say I enjoy every step of the writing process—finding and shaping ideas, researching, writing, revising (probably my favourite part because that's where I really get to play), fact-checking, working with editors and illustrators, and, of course, seeing my name on a book or magazine article. The most rewarding part, though, is related to the school visit story—being able to share and connect with kids, getting them excited about their world and asking questions, motivating them to check things out. And...oh yeah...I get to learn a whole bunch of really cool stuff along the way, too!

YAYA: Do you have a favorite age group to visit?

Fiona: Love the younger kids...anywhere in the K-6 range.

TINA: I adore the younger kids also, that is why I started writing have many stories to tell about all these little people.

Fiona: For sure, Tina, observing and interacting with kids is a fabulous idea generator. Kid logic can be so fresh, yet obvious and true—gems to a children's writer Eavesdropping (shhh, don't tell my mom) is a great way to find out the sorts of things kids are interested in and give you fodder for authentic dialogue. Don't have teens? Hang around in the mall food court for a few hours. Pure gold.

Chippy: Are there any do's and don'ts of nonfiction that you would like to share with us? I mean from your experience.

Fiona: With so many paths to success in this business, there is no master list of absolute do's and don'ts. Lists will vary. My personal "do's" are in my "Eleven Tips" article: http://www.fionabayrock.com/ARTICLEeleventips.htm

Fiona: My main don'ts:

• don't talk down to readers
• don't skimp or cut corners because "it's only for kids"
• don't be preachy or didactic
• don't use cliches
• don't forget to have fun

Fiona: Russian writer Maxim Gorky sums it up nicely: "You must write for children in the same way as you do for adults, only better"

Jan: Before you escape our clutches, I wonder if you could speak a moment on the topic of respecting the reader. I get so many nonfiction manuscripts as an instructor that have this false chipper, "Okay, boys and girls" tone, that makes it very clear the writer sees children as a very different thing from themselves. Could you talk about the danger of writers approaching readers with this "precious little ones" view of children, rather than seeing them as people seeking information and entertainment?

Fiona: I hope this doesn't make me sound too cranky, but patronizing, condescending tone drives me nuts (and probably every kid and editor on the planet, too!) Kids can spot a phony attitude—even a well-intentioned chipper "get-ready-to-learn-something" one—a mile away. As Jack Prelutsky says, "Kids are not stupid. They're just short." They want to be treated respectfully just like adults do. I treat my readers—of any age—with the common courtesies I expect as a reader. For me, a great shift in thinking occurs when my goal is to "share" or "tell a good story" rather than "teach". It keeps things natural and conversational. Much of what I write for children would be very much at home in a conversation with friends over coffee. The level of respect is the same, regardless of age.

YAYA: if you were not a writer, what else would you like to do?

Fiona: I think if I'd had the right role model at the right time, and my high school science had been more than answering questions in a textbook, I'd have gone into science and be running my own lab right now...probably something to do with animal morphology.

Fiona: Well, it looks like the chat has come to an end. Thanks for your great questions, everyone. I hope I've given you some food for thought and an idea or two you can apply to your writing.

Jan: Thank you, Fiona my friend, you are...as always...a peach.