Mel: is Mel Boring, moderator of this chat with Betty Erickson and editor of the ICL web site.

Pink shows the user names of the people who are asking questions of Betty.

Mel: A HAPPY APRIL WELCOME to the ICL Chat Room! We have a guest tonight who has mastered many of the "trades" involved in children's writing. Betty Erickson is a specialist in writing early reader books, writing for emergent, early fluent and fluent readers. She has had ten fiction and nonfiction books published, plus Betty also wrote AND illustrated 83 Beastie Books; and I am as eager as you are to hear what those Beastie books are. Betty, a WARM WELCOME tonight!

Betty: Hi, Mel.

Mel: Betty, let me ask you first, do you remember the very FIRST thing you ever wrote, and how old you were?

Betty: I didn't do much writing until college. Then I wrote because that was how I knew what I thought. My first writiing was a piece for a literary sorority I got into and had to write California history. I wrote it in limerick form.

Mel: Do you remember any of that limerick?

Betty: Only my desperate start. My audience was so old and wise. "California's history is scarcely a mystery to such as the likes of you...."

Mel: That sure does not sound like a "desperate" start, Betty. It sounds like the work of a true "limerickist"!

Betty: It was more survival. But I do like limericks.

Mel: So how did your journey take you into writing for children from writing limericks in college?

Betty: I became a teacher and then after I'd taught several years, a reading specialist. I work with kids who need extra support in reading, the Einstein types. I wrote books for the kids I teach and they were a captive audience. This was okay until Joy Cowley's books came on the market. That sent my early efforts to the incinerator and me to ICL and to the Highlights Writer's workshop

Betty: Yes. She's the New Zealand author who writes children's books with real pizzazz. I tried desperately to imitate her style.

Mel: So you took the ICL course, then? Can you tell us about your experience with that course, Betty?

Betty: I've taken the ICL and Long Ridge courses and learned a lot and still have lots to learn. The instructors were especially helpful. Most of my help comes from the kids I teach.

Mel: You also mentioned the Highlights For Children summer workshop, Betty. How was that workshop helpful to you?

Betty: Spending a week with children's authors like Eve Bunting, Jerry and Eileen Spinelli, Joy Cowley and dozens of others can't help but motivate one and get creative juices flowing.

Mel: What did you mean, exactly, when you said that most of your help comes from the kids you teach?

Betty: The kids are my critique groups. I used to write under the pen name, Dr. Goose because I was afraid of their criticism. Now, I can take it. They're quick to clap if they really like a story and they're quick to give it a YUCK or to tell you what's wrong or where to file it.

Mel: They are our FINEST critics--that's for sure!

vwoman: As a writer trying to break into writing for emergent readers, how do you decide on a topic? Is there a way to be sure the topic you've chosen is needed?

Betty: You need to be familiar with children's books--in my case early readers books. Also, you need to listen to children to know what they think about and care about. Ask yourself "What if" questions. Enlist the help of children. They have great ideas.

flynn: How many books do your publishers sell for you each year? I ask about working with educational publishers; some don't get books out. Thank you.

Betty: I don't know how many books my publishers sell each year. Each year, I know they get more out. You'll need to ask them next time.

Mel: GOOD idea, Betty, we'll have the chance to ask them April 17! Do you actually have KIDS official critique groups?

Betty: They sound very official to me. When they know I'm the author, they can be really helpful. With first graders, I have to let them know that it's all right not to like every book. There are plenty out there to choose from.

Mel: Here’s a follow-up question from flynn about the number of your books sold.

flynn: But you must know what they sell for you when royalties come, don't you?

Betty: Yes quarterly royalties are a real treat. Since these books are sold world wide for use with emerging readers, they sell well.

Mel: Maybe it would be good to get some definitions about early readers. What exactly

defines an "Early Reader" book?

Betty: A book for an early reader is very supportive. Half of the story is told by picturea. I need to think pictures while writing. Also the text is supportive with ample spacing, natural language and not too many words on a page.

Mel: When you say "emergent," "early fluent" and "fluent" readers, what is meant by those terms?

Betty: Early readers are the beginners, usually in kindergarten and first grade. Books for emergent readers have more text and books for early fluent readers have smaller print and not such close picture correlation. But they all need to tell a REAL story.

Mel: What do you mean by natural language text, or natural language text?

Betty: I mean children's natural language. Text written the way children talk rather than "book language."

Mel: Can you give us an example, Betty?

Betty: "He zoomed down the path. Too late! The rabbit disappeared" is what I consider natural language. "He ran and ran but he did not get the rabbit" would be more stilted. Children like action. They are taught to read punctuation early on.

Mel: EXCELLENT example--thanks! Can you explain more about the difference between books for early readers and picture books? Are early readers "easier" for children than picture books?

Betty: Picture books I consider to be books older people read TO children. The vocabulary is much richer than they can read themselves. Picture books build vocabulary. Early reader books support children's language and introduce only a few new words. Actually they are both forms of picture books.

Mel: Do you write books with controlled vocabulary?

Betty: No. I would think words and not story. I've tried that and failed miserably.

spudsie: How'd you form a kids' critique group, and how old are they?

Betty: As a reading specialist, I work with eight different groups of first and second graders every day. They are mostly 6- and 7-year-olds. They share many books and they share their own writings and they express opinions freely. When I write a new book, I try it out on them before sending it to a publisher.

flynn: Seedling guidelines ask for "predictable" and "unique" stories. How do you do that?

Betty: Predictable means that children can predict coming events in the story, and I would say unique would be the author’s treatment of the story. It might be a familiar topic with a new slant. The author's voice would make it unique.

Mel: Are books for early readers the same as hi-lo books?

Betty: No, they aren't, Mel. Hi lo books are written for older novice readers or ESOL students or remedial students. Topics are of interest to older children but vocabulary is low, less difficult. Sentences shorter and the layout is easier to follow. Early readers are written to interest all young novice readers.

Mel: I'm familiar with the term "ESL," but what does "ESOL" mean (if not a typo (-:})?

Betty: Oh, NO. That got me into trouble. ESL is English as a second language. In recent years they've slipped in that "O" and I don't have a clue as to what it stands for.

cyranogal: ESOL means English for Speakers of Other Languages.

Mel: THANKS, cyranogal!

Betty: Thanks. I should have known that, cyranogal!

cyranogal: What is your writing process?

Betty: My writing process? I'm not sure I understand the question, but I'll try. My first draft of the story may be as long as 600 to 800 words. I write the story or nonfiction piece and then cut it to size. That's the tricky part--getting the word count down to where it is acceptable. I've learned to start where the action is and that sometimes whacks off half of the story. After I rewrite it at least 10 times, I try to illustrate it so I can run it by the children (who must have illustrations). With their input I sometimes rewrite and send it on.

cyranogal: That's exactly what I was asking. Thanks!

foxey: Have you written any biographies for Seedling Publications?

Betty: No, I haven't.

del: Why do you think your books are so successful with Seedling?

Betty: I am familiar with Seedling’s books and know that market. I've learned from my editors that they want quality stories and they accept no violence and that they want a real story, even though the word count is limited.

Mel: Betty, does Seedling do only Early Readers, or other kinds of books as well?

Betty: They publish books for Early and Early fluent readers. They don't publish for older children.

Mel: Exactly what do you mean by a "real story"?

Betty: A story that has a beginning, middle and end.

Mel: Which is your best-selling Seedling book?

Betty: I'd have to say it is the first one because I'm still writing about that character, Sherman. Four books have been accepted with this spunky little dog.

Mel: In a nutshell, what is Sherman like?

Betty: Sherman is a lovable character who does typical doggie things that children know about and can relate to. Most of the stories are true or nearly so. The illustrator has brought the dog to life.

Mel: Betty, you are evidently a writer with MANY more widely ranging talents than I even thought! I've just learned about your YA novel, PHONIES. Can you tell us about that, please?

Betty: I wanted to branch out and try another genre. I have lived with the characters in this book so long (all fictional) that I felt I just had to write it. I'm not ready to tell you what it's about.

Mel: Okay, I understand! Betty, one of us has asked what Seedling is. Can you describe just what kind of publisher they are? Would you describe them, for example, as just an educational publisher?

Betty: Seedling sells primarily to schools and they also deal with parent involvement as well as books for children to read.

bulioni: Since you don't work from word lists, do you write your early reader first, then consult a word list as a reference?

Betty: I don't ever consult a word list because I'm involved with reading with children all the time. But if one were not familiar with the language structure of young children you would need a word list. Big words are not the words that baffle children if they have special meaning or feeling. For example: "fantastic," "amazing" and "awesome" don't present as much of a challenge as "this," "then," "there," "they," etc.

Mel: Do you feel you "hear a word list" when you read with children then, Betty? That is, are you guided by words kids actually use?

Betty: I don't think word list. I think in language that children think in, I suppose, and that could be why I'm struggling with this word list thing.

vwoman: How do you suggest getting familiar with a publisher's books? The educational publishers I'm interested in writing for are not available at the public libraries here. I have ordered a couple of books, but that gets expensive, especially since I haven't sold anything yet.

Betty: Good question. Have you visited school libraries and classrooms? Since many books are sold by catalogue, that would be a problem.

Mel: Would a university library or college library have educational books for children, Betty?

Betty: I'm sure some universities do in the educational department, probably not in their libraries.

sunshiner: Do computer programs that claim to "measure" reader age, grade level or reading level really work, Betty?

Betty: That might be a touchy subject. I'm sure some children will benefit from such programs, but any program that guarantees success is dubious. Some kids learn no matter what we do with them. Those who are put on computers are usually those who are having difficulty. They need a warm body and find ways to "play" with the computer.

Mel: Betty, I'm eager to know more about your 83 Beastie Books, eight-page books for the Title 1 reading program in Prince William County, Virginia.

Betty: We, a group of 4 or 5 teachers, supervisors and reading specialists got together three summers to write books that children could take home and keep at home. This was a Title 1 project and many of these children did not have books at home. We weren't illustrators, but we could make drawings that satisfied the children. At least they corresponded with text. We chose topics of interest and topics in the curriculum and got them printed at one of our high schools.

Mel: Why were they called "Beastie Books," Betty?

Betty: One in the group suggested this name. It has no special meaning.

foxey: Where could I get your Sherman books?

Betty: Continental/Seedling has a website with all of their books listed.

flynn: Tell us more about your best-selling Seedling book so far--would that be Sherman's books? And why do they have such appeal?

Betty: I think children like the fact that Sherman learned to bring in the paper and he learned that trick too well and brought in all the papers in the neighborhood. Of course, he and Brad had to take them back. Maybe they like it because it's real.

Gladys: Could you explain why an editor would label a story as "slight?"

Betty: I have never heard of an editor labeling a story as slight. Possibly s/he thinks there isn't enough "story" in it. But that’s only a guess.

foxey: Which are shorter books, the Seedling books or the Title 1 books?

Betty: Well, foxey, both Seedling and Title 1 have eight-page books. But those for Title 1 were only eight pages long. Seedling Publications has 8- 12- and 16-page books.

del: Does Seedling ever turn you down? Do you submit elsewhere?

Betty: Oh, yes, I get turned down by Seedling. And yes, I submit to other places. Some stories are more suitable as magazine stories.

del: What have you learned from Seedling editors about writing?

Betty: Think pictures. If the text doesn't conjur up a picture, it's not going to work.

vwoman: I homeschool. I'm not in a position where I can visit school libraries. Any suggestions?

sunshiner: Do you know how accurate is the Microsoft Word program's reading age level estimate?

Betty: I'm not familiar with Microsoft Word program's reading age level estimate, but any of those estimates are just that--estimates. The Reading Recovery program has set levels of books over the years. But it is an estimate, and the age level is tentative. Book levels are changed as teachers watch children interact with them. Do you need to write at a specific age level? Some five-year-olds can read at seventh-grade level. The content needs to appropriate for the age.

Mel: One last question.

cyranogal: What are you currently working on?

Betty: I have a book about nightmares that I'd like to get published because it is a topic that children relate to and there aren't that many books out there on subject that young children can read. Mine is not scary. I'm trying to polish it. Then there's THE PHONIES, my middle-grade novel, a mystery. I really love writing that book, but it's obviously not ready because I can't tell you in one sentence what it's about. That's why I didn't talk about it when I had the chance earlier.

Mel: Betty, I've been enjoying what you've been sharing so much that I lost track of the time--very HAPPILY! Thank you so much for all the understanding you've given us tonight of early readers AND their books. We will be eager to hear from your editors two weeks from tonight, who must feel VERY fortunate to have a writer of your qualifications at Seedling Publications. Will you please come back and share with us

again someday--perhaps tell us then about your middle-grade novel, THE PHONIES?

Betty: Thank you, Mel. I'd love to.

Mel: Please return to our chat room two weeks from tonight, Thursday April 17, to talk with Betty Erickson's editors at Seedling Publications, Lynn Salem and Josie Stewart. They will be talking about the kind of books Betty Erickson writes, and about Betty's books, from the other side of the desk. We'll learn lots about how writers and editors work as a team, I'm sure. I hope you can join me and Lynn Salem and Josie Stewart on April 17.

Our WARM THANKS to you again, Betty, because early readers are what MOST of us writers know LEAST about. You've been very helpful at making us feel we know more about what they are all about now!

Mel: Goodnight, everyone!

Betty: Goodnight.