Jan Fields is moderator of this interview/workshop, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked of our speaker.

Jan Fields: I want to welcome Ellen Jackson to the Writer's Retreat to talk to us today about villains and why they do what they do.

LondY: WELCOME, ELLEN! We are so pleased to have you here and super excited for you to answer our questions. Thank you for sharing your time, experience, and knowledge! We all appreciate it!

ColoradoKate: Yes, welcome, and thanks... and what Londy said!

Ellen Jackson: Thank you, everyone! I'm happy to be here. I'm glad there are so many questions, and I'll do my best to answer. But please feel free to chime in...

ColoradoKate: Does a villain have to be a person who interacts directly with the protagonist? Can a villain be someone "off stage" who has set things in motion that create conflict for the MC? Or could the villain be not a person at all, but a war or a dust storm or an addiction? But maybe I'm thinking of things that aren't really villains; they don't necessarily have any motivation to harm the MC. So another question is, does the villain have to want to harm or create conflict for the MC, or can the harm be accidental or coincidental?

Ellen Jackson: I think you might be confusing an antagonist with a true villain. An antagonist is a character, force of nature, creature, animal or other entity that keeps the protagonist from getting what he wants or reaching his goal. A villain is a character who is truly evil. But, of course, as your question suggests, these categories often overlap. Yes, it's quite possible for the villain to remain "off-stage" and never actually appear in the story. I think, in some ways, that makes the villain much more mysterious and threatening.

Ellen Jackson: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that Sauron in the movie version of LORD OF THE RINGS never actually appears on screen. His minions appear, but he himself is never really seen--except for his eye. He exists as an evil, all-powerful presence in the movie. And he's very effective that way. If you can make it work, there's no reason why you can't do something similar.

ColoradoKate: Yeah, I think I am mixing up antagonists and true villains. So villain = truly evil. Got it. I'm thinking now about that distance thing... a villain could know and want to harm the protagonist, or in another case the protagonist's suffering could just be sort of collateral damage caused by wide-reaching evil. That could add an interesting level of frustration and helplessness.... Thanks!

Ellen Jackson: Your villain can also have helpers working for him (or her) in the vicinity of the protagonist.

Pippi: What characteristics must a character have to be considered a villain?

Ellen Jackson: Your villain or antagonist is the character who is keeping your mc from reaching his or her goals. If that character is evil, s/he is a villain. If s/he is just an obstacle to the mc, then that character is an antagonist. So first of all--figure out how your villain is hurting the mc or getting in his way. That will help determine what characteristics he should have. If you're trying to create a true villain, here are a few characteristics you might give him or her:

Ellen Jackson: Make the villain a figure of mystery and menace
He or she should have absolute self-confidence and optimism – the true villain never thinks he’s going to get caught.
But he might be plagued by guilt
The reader should believe that the villain will prevail–stack the deck in his/her favor.
Describe the villain through other people's eyes, that adds a sense of objectivity. Yes, he's really as bad as the main character thinks.
Put the villain in an ominous setting.
The villain should match the tone of the story–you don’t want an excessively evil villain in a lighthearted story.
Make the villain pedantic–and humorless.
Or create a funny villain–but be aware that your readers won’t dislike a funny villain as much.
Give the villain a physical trait or two that are unpleasant, such as: an unpleasant voice that's sharp, cruel, harsh, raspy, a hyena-like laugh, a sinister odor, eyes that stare, that are pale, cadaverous, sinister, cold, like slits, narrow, yellow, staring,
Have him or her speak too precisely or pedantically. He might be cruel, merciless, shrewd, mesmerizing, vengeful, a bully, cunning, sly, conniving, etc.
When you describe him or her use words that evoke an unpleasant image or feeling.

Ellen Jackson: Your job is to make the villain's behavior seem menacing, yet believable. You want to use language and specifics to get your reader to dislike and/or fear this person.

Cat: If you write about someone who's just all-around bad, do you go to the fullest end of creepiness that you can, or do you try to keep it in the range of believability? If this doesn't make sense, let me know and I'll try to verify. Thank you.

Ellen Jackson: The way to make someone really creepy is:

1. Give him or her some scary or very unpleasant traits.
2. Make him or her really, really powerful.
3. Add mystery, perhaps keep him half hidden--so the reader's imagination takes over. Use suggestion rather than telling the reader what the villain is capable of.
4. Use a few vivid details to make your villain come alive. (This works for all your characters.)
5. Keep his behavior logical, that is, logical within the context of the story. If his behavior is logical, he'll be believable.

Ellen Jackson: If you're writing a fantasy, then I would say yes the villain can be pretty horrible. But if it's a real story about real people, then probably you'll want to give the villain some good traits. People we meet in real life are seldom totally, irredeemably bad.

Papa Moon: Thanks for this. I'm into history at the moment, but looking forward to getting re-acquainted with dragons.

Ellen Jackson: The nice thing about dragons, monsters, werewolves, I suppose even vampires, and creatures like Grendel in Beowulf is that they're just plain evil. You don't need to worry too much about how they got that way unless you want to. Personally, I worry a little about werewolves because I think they give real wolves a bad reputation, but that's just me. Zombies are even better (from this point of view). They're not alive, and they don't have too many fans, so nobody gets too upset if you kill them. You don't have to worry about pro-zombie groups writing to your publisher complaining about character assassination!

Cat: How do you go about casting a villain? Do you create a separate story for the villain, or do you just "come up" with circumstances that create conflicts that leads your MC to an unalterable climax?

Ellen Jackson: The villain should be an integral part of the story. Every story is different and every villain is different. First, I'd suggest that you develop your conflict or story problem. Your villain should arise naturally out of the conflict. Ask yourself: What does the main character want? Then your second question should be: Who or what is keeping my mc from getting it?

Ellen Jackson: Write a character sketch of this person. Then figure out the motivation--why doesn't he or she want the hero to succeed? If your story is longer than a few pages, you might want to write up a back story for the villain. How did she get this way? You may or may not use this material, but it's very useful to have it. You always need to know more about your characters than you put on the page.

Ellen Jackson: Once you have the general outline of your villain, go back and fill in the specifics. What are her mannerisms? Does he have a favorite expression? What are his hobbies? Etc.

Belle: What kind of motivation should I give my villian to be a villian? Like should he have had such an abusive childhood that that affects how he decides to live his life?

Ellen Jackson: This is a big question, and I can't really answer it without knowing more about your story. But this is how I develop a villain:

Ellen Jackson: Find a villainous name
Give your villain a trademark gesture or maybe a trademark slogan.
If you can, break the stereotype of the villain–give him depth and variety
How does he go about doing his evil? What’s his day job? Does he have helpers to do the grunt work?
Give the villain’s back story. Why did he turn bad?
Stack the deck in her favor. You want the reader to be afraid of your villain.
Give the villain at least one redeeming quality.
Don’t forget the villain’s class (but don’t stereotype)–a drug dealer from a rough neighborhood will talk differently from a corporate mogul.

Ellen Jackson: Find a way to bring out his inner wounds. The audience may not like him, but they will understand his inability to evolve to the “good” side. Just a whisper of humanity adds so much depth to the overall story.

Ellen Jackson: You don’t have to do all these things. Lemony Snicket never gives Count Olaf redeeming qualities. We’ll never learn that Count Olaf was mistreated as a child, or he is lonely, or needs a friend.

Ellen Jackson: Give him or her specifics: The Warden in Holes has rattlesnake venom nail polish.

Ellen Jackson: I hope this helps. But don’t overdo it. The villain has to be believable. Avoid cliches and melodrama–unless you’re writing a comedy.

Cat: What do you think about stories that cast the villain as the MC? Do you suggest making the villainous MC still every ounce a villain, or do you recommend endowing him with some glimmers of humanity that make you understand why he's such a villain, and maybe give you a touch of empathy with his situation?

Ellen Jackson: My goodness, Cat. You ask good questions. Yes, it can be great fun to write a story with the villain as the hero. I did that myself when I wrote Handsome and Dreadful from the witch's point of view. If you'd like to read it, you can go here: http://www.ellenjackson.net/handsome_and_dreadful_61462.htm. There are several ways you can go with your story, if you write it from the villain's point of view. For example, you can make the villain an unreliable narrator so the reader sees right through him. Or you really make him a true hero so that he's sympathetic--or even funny

Pippi: It's my understanding "villains" can take different forms in kid lit - ranging from a friend or parent (or even the main character) who unknowingly stands in the way of the main character accomplishing her goal.... to the bully. I'm sure the first type of villain mentioned is fair game in kid lit. But what about the bully? Do editors tend to shy away from depicting bullies? If so, is there a particular age group where it becomes okay to introduce a bully? And is there a difference in what magazine and book markets find acceptable?

Ellen Jackson: Bullies are a great topic for kids' books--this is a problem that even children in kindergarten have to deal with. So if you have a good story about bullying--even if it's for very young children--you can probably find an editor who'd be interested. I don't know much about the magazine market, so I won't say anything about that. One of my favorite books on bullying for younger children is the picture book The Recess Queen by Alexis O'Neill. But there are lots of others--and always room for another good one.

Cat: What do you recommend to make your villain villainous? What little tricks can you share to help us get our villains motivated? I'm sure people don't wake up and think... "Hm, villain. Yep, I think I'll be that!" What do you recommend to make your villain a motivated villain?

Ellen Jackson: Cat–I’ll give you some suggestions, but of course every story and every villain is different. Before you start writing your story, try to get to know your villain. What’s his back story? What kind of villain is she? And what kind of story are you writing? Ask yourself what you want your hero’s attitude to be toward your villain: If you’re writing a dark, dystopian ya, you’ll probably want a true villain. If you’re writing for five-year-olds–maybe you’ll want an antagonist who isn’t so scary e.g. a brother or sister or parent. Or one who’s even funny. I’ll assume your villain is totally evil and sinister (unless you tell me otherwise). Here are some of the things you want to accomplish:

Ellen Jackson: 1. You want your reader to dislike the villain. So give him or her some physical traits or mannerisms that are unpleasant. You should be very careful not to play to any stereotype about a specific group of people in doing this (see the essay on my website for more on this). But it’s O.K., in fact I highly recommend, that you give her individual traits that make him or her a little creepy. For example, Count Olaf, one of Lemony Snickett’s villains, has only one eyebrow.

Ellen Jackson: Physical traits:
voice–sharp, cruel, harsh, raspy
hands–short stocky fingers, white, ruthless, sharp nails, hair on palms
hyena like laugh
eyes--pale, cadaverous, sinister, stone cold, blazing, uncanny, narrow, yellow, staring, etc. beautiful, cat-like, etc.

Ellen Jackson: Personality:
cruel, merciless, shrewd, mesmerizing, vengeful, a bully, cunning, sly, conniving, etc.
all villains enjoy their villainy
pets--piranhas, bats, alligator, cockroach, venus flytrap (careful, this is verging on humor).

Ellen Jackson: 2. Behavior–figure out what’s motivating your villain. Is it greed? Show her love of money. Is it the need for power? Show him being a bully or maybe even abusing animals.

Ellen Jackson: 3. Stack the deck against the hero. People like to root for the underdog. Make the villain really, really powerful and threatening. Perhaps he’s in a position of authority or has everyone around the protagonist fooled. Perhaps she has magical abilities or minions who do her bidding.

Ellen Jackson: 4. Make your villain a little bit mysterious. S/he doesn’t always have to be doing something evil–you might just hint at what he or she is capable of, especially in the beginning. Don’t show all your cards at once. Sometimes you’ll want to leave the details to the reader’s imagination.

Ellen Jackson: Yes, you’re right. People don’t think of themselves as the villain. Every villain thinks HE’S the hero of the story. Keep that in mind. Show the reader how he justifies his dastardly deeds.

Ellen Jackson: Don’t forget that if you’re writing for very little children, you don’t want the villain to be too scary–tone it down a bit.

Ellen Jackson: Think of all the traits that we don’t like in other people, then exaggerate one of those traits–and that can be your motivation: Excessive love of money, greed, arrogance, revenge, excessive rigidity, ignorance–any of these traits might be motivating your villain.

Ellen Jackson: But also give your villain one or two good traits. Is he loyal to his subordinates? Does he have a soft spot in his heart for his dear, old mother?

Jan Fields: What do you see as some of the most common villain stereotypes? Maybe some a new writer might need to watch for?

Ellen Jackson: I'm glad you asked this, Jan. I think that to some extent, evil IS a stereotype. How many truly evil people do any of us really know?

Ellen Jackson: Some of what I've said so far has really been about a typical fantasy villain who personifies evil. And you can have lots of fun with a character like that--especially if everyone realizes that it's a fantasy.

Ellen Jackson: But if you want to write nuanced fiction, I think it's a little dangerous to imply that someone is totally evil. It's when people think a person or a group is evil that wars begin and even ordinary people feel they are entitled to any behavior whatsoever. After all, if the goal is the elimination of evil--everything is allowed. So be careful how you use this in your stories.

Ellen Jackson: Most of my stories have flawed characters, but no one who's truly evil. In other words, I usually favor antagonists over villains--unless I'm writing a fairy tale or a true fantasy.

Ellen Jackson: You have to give your villain some characteristics, so you have to be careful not to reinforce any stigma or prejudice that's already present--

Ellen Jackson: You don't want to make your villain a member of a particular ethnic group and give them characteristics that are often falsely attributed to that group. Instead of calling an elderly female a "dowdy old woman," for example, what if she's a motorcycle mechanic? (In case you think this is unlikely, I actually know someone who is!)

Ellen Jackson: This is tricky. You DO need to use language and description to indicate that your villain is someone scary or thoroughly unpleasant--but really think about the terms you use and what they're implying about the group to which that person belongs.

Ellen Jackson: As for common stereotypes, gosh, there are so many:
Animals
dogs are loyal (or vicious)
wolves (and werewolfs) are dangerous
lions are noble
apes are brutes
skunks smell

People
foreigners are lazy
old people are senile or useless
teenagers take drugs and party all the time
cheerleaders are shallow
football players are stupid
the class brain is a nerd

Ellen Jackson: One of the best ways to energize your villains (all your characters, really) is to stay away from this type of characterization and give them some totally unexpected quality that goes against the common stereotype. Or don't even describe them at all. Characterize them by their behavior.

Jan Fields: Here's a story type I see a LOT of from students. You have this kid who does something wrong...he's sassy to his parents...or he lies...or he is lazy about his homework. And you have these poor parents who are trying to get the kid to do the right thing...usually by lecturing. And finally he does.

Jan Fields: Now that I think about the protagonist/antagonist thing, that sort of turns them wrongside out...doesn't it? I mean the parents are the one trying to get something to happen and the kid's mishavio is standing in the way. I've kind of looked at the story from a "this is an adult viewpoint so it doesn't connect with kids" kind of way...but it's even a kind of wrong-side-out protag/antag situation.

Jan Fields: So that kind of story doesn't work, I know...but I wonder, can you imagine a story that WOULD work where the main character is innocently standing in the way of something a villain/antagonist wants desperately. Where he kind of foils the villain just by being a kind of ordinary kid doing ordinary things? Now that I think about this further -- this is kind of how the old Road Runner/Wiley Coyote stories worked. The Road Runner hardly every DID anything to thwart the villain...it just sort of happened.

Ellen Jackson: Thanks for that question, Jan! I love it. I think that kind of plot would work best in a humorous story, don't you? But there's certainly no reason why a writer couldn't work it into a deadly serious story.

Ellen Jackson: The story along those lines that I'm thinking of is THE ALIENS ARE COMING (I forget the author--but it's a rhyming picture book). The big, scary, horrible-looking aliens are coming in their spaceship to invade Earth. Only--they take one look at us and are scared out of their wits! The aliens are set up as villains, but scared off by the ugliness of the protagonists (Earthlings!) who never even know they exist. I see that as one version of the plot you mentioned.

Ellen Jackson: The problem would be to make it believable--and there would be the danger that the reader would end up identifying more with the villain than with the protagonist. By definition, you'd be focusing more on the villain because the protagonist would just be going about his daily business. So it's tricky, but it certainly could be done. An interesting idea...

Mikki: My question is that I don't know if I have a villian or an antagonist. She's the new girl in school, bent on destroying everything that the MC holds dear. She is doing this with the utmost glee. She's never met the MC before she comes to her school, but the MC's father was instrumental in sending both of her parents to prison. So...is she a villian because of her hatred of the MC and what she does to her, deliberately, or is she more of an antagonist?

Ellen Jackson: I'm not sure the labels matter all that much. She doesn't sound like the personification of evil, it's true--but I'd say she's a villain. She wants revenge which is a very villainish thing to want. However, you aren't writing a fantasy so be careful that you give her multiple layers. She needs to be more than a revenge seeker. But it sounds like you're spending the requisite time trying to figure her out.

ColoradoKate: I've written stories where both the protagonist and the villain change, and the villain really isn't villainous at the end. I've also written one where the person the MC thinks is the villain really isn't; the conflict is really within the MC. Are those, then, really stories without villains?

Ellen Jackson: I think we can allow for many different kinds of villains and/or antagonists. It doesn't matter what we call them, what matters is their function in the story. And their function is almost always to stir up conflict. The character who turns out not to be a villain after all or who changes has still served the fuction of the antagonist--by increasing tension and conflict, even if only in the mc's head. By the way, one of the first things you should do (after you've established just who the villain is) is decide what emotion you want your reader to have toward him or her. Here are some possibilities (and I'm sure there are others I haven't thought of):

Fear
Laughter
Anger
Sympathy
Comtempt
Pity
Or a mixture of the above

Ellen Jackson: Secondly, think about the way your story will end. Will the villain:
See the light and ask for forgiveness?
Keep doing the same things–only somewhere else?
Be weakened or punished?
Be rehabilitated?
Defeat the protagonist?
Be destroyed?
Or maybe the protagonist will realizes that the villain wasn’t so bad after all.
Or even (as you mention) that the villain wasn't the villain after all.
The end will determine how you set the story up in the beginning.

PapaMoon: Ellen That is REALLY good advice! One of the big problems I face when writing fantasy fiction is coming up with a suitable conflict. THANKS

Ellen Jackson: Finding the right conflict is the hardest part for me too. Plus you really need two conflicts (in most stories)--the external conflict and the internal one. So you've got to ask yourself:
1. How does the villain challenge the protagonist externally?
2. And how does he challenge the protagonist internally?

Jan Fields: I see a lot of villains in unpublished stories that are clearly plot devices. Their behavior is either stereotypical or too convenient. For the most part, writers are also people who don't see themselves as particularly villainous...so how do we make our bad guys feel like real people who do things for real and understandable reasons? Do you feel villains need more pre-planning than say...sidekicks...does the writer need to know a lot about the villain in order to create actions and motivatios that read true on the page? I'm working on a novel right now with several villainous folks in it...and I find I need to know a lot about them so I know what motivates them to behave in ways I'd maybe believe a REAL person would do.

Ellen Jackson: Yes, I agree that you need to know a lot about your villains! Your villain is the entity that will give your story it's force and liveliness. Often the hero just reacts to the villain, at least in the beginning, so it's the villain who is driving the action. As I've said elsewhere, don't forget that the villain thinks he's the hero! He's absolutely certain that his plans will succeed and he'll get everything he wants. Supreme self-confidence is one trait that most villains have.

Ellen Jackson: Motivation is one key to making your villain believable. You should be really clear about what's motivating him or her. Here are a few suggestions for possible motivation (a few of these overlap):
He wants to spread hate and fear
It’s just his nature–for example, zombies, wild animals, (but be careful that your characterization doesn't lead to stereotyping of a real group of people or animals)
He wants to corrupt everyone–your basic devil or demon
He wants to control the kids or some other vulnerable segment of the population.
She believes the ends justify the means–
She knows what’s best for the hero–and is going to give it to him.
Something’s been lost and she wants to get it back
She wants to save humanity–but she’s a dangerous nutcase
He desires riches–he’s greedy
He serves a more powerful evil leader
He wants revenge
He wants to ruin our hero because of a perceived wrong
He craves chaos and wants to Annihilate! Raze! Lay Waste!
He was a normal person who was hurt and twisted by events in his past
He seeks personal power
She seeks admiration
There’s a war–he wants to win it for his side.
He wants to rule part of the world
He wants to world the entire world
She’s just completely insane

Ellen Jackson: 2. But that's not all. Make sure your plot is logical and the villain’s behavior understandable given how he sees things and his circumstances and assumptions.

Ellen Jackson: 3. Be sure to use specifics when describing your villain and his actions. Don’t tell us how evil she is, show us! Does she catch flies to feed to her venus flytrap because she likes to see them die? Does she show no mercy when the hero (Oliver Twist) asks for more food?

Ellen Jackson: 4. And, yes, give us the backstory if it's appropriate. Was her childhood unstable, frustrated, and unhappy? Did she go to reform school? Tell us (but maybe, not all at once.) Feed the backstory in a little at a time.

Ellen Jackson: Your villain is often your most important character--so do her justice!

Ellen Jackson: I need to add that the above list of possible motivations is for a true villain--that is, someone who is almost a caricature. A person who's simply an antagonist would have more mixed motivation.

Londy: I heard it said once that the stronger the villain is, the stronger the main character needs to be. (I don't remember where....) Is it also vice versa? What are your thoughts on this?

Ellen Jackson: Oh absolutely. The villain needs to be a worthy foil for the hero or protagonist. They don't need to be equal in outward force, though. In fact, you want to stack your deck against the hero, especially in the beginning. Taking LORD OF THE RINGS as an example (again), you have all the evil in the universe represented by Sauron. And who goes up against him? A tiny hobbit. But, as you suggest, the hobbits are morally stronger than the villain. I think it's important to remember that in most stories there is both an inner and an outer conflict. By winning the inner battle against the villain, the hobbits can win the outer battle too.

Papa Moon: I wonder if maybe starting a story building up the bad guy, then then matching the MC to just be him is worth thinking about?

Ellen Jackson: I think it helps to think of your villain and your protagonist as a pair. You can either match them against each other (as in the super villains that go up against Superman) or contrast them (as in Lord of the Rings)--but somehow these two represent two sides of one life problem.

Cat: How do you make your villain a foil to your MC? Do you make your villain directly opposite in character to your MC, or do you go for "familiarity breeds contempt" slant?

Ellen Jackson: One interesting thing you can do is make your villain and your hero parallel characters. Perhaps in many ways they're alike--but in one or two important ways, they differ. Remember, the villain doesn't know he's the villain--he thinks he's the good guy! Often the mc has the very qualities that villain wants--or even that he pretends to have. Your villain should be intelligent, intriguing, and multi-layered--and he should almost win. But he's missing that one crucial character trait. Or in other stories, the villain represents a path not taken. This is what the mc would look like if she had given into her tendency to be greedy and had put selfish motives first. But this is only one way to develop a story. There are many, many other ways that work well too. (You can also make your mc and your villain total opposties.)

Billie: Who is your favorite villain and why?

Ellen Jackson: Omigosh! I'm not sure I could name a favorite--there are so many to choose from. Five I named in my villain's essay are:
Ebenezer Scrooge who needs no introduction--he's such a rich character.
Spiker and Sponge from James and the Giant Peach by Roald Dahl.
Count Olaf in A Bad Beginning by Lemony Snicket
Cluny, the Scourge from Redwall by Brian Jacques
And, of course, Voldemort from Harry Potter
Oh, and the warden from Holes
I also have to say that I have a soft spot in my heart for all witches. (I often want to know what a fairy tale looks like through the eyes of the evil witch. I feel the same way about the giant in Jack and the Beanstalk.)

ev: How about sharing with us your favorite picture book villain --from your own picture books? --from picture books not your own? And why?

Ellen Jackson: Thanks, Ev. I appreciate the question. I suppose my favorite villain from my own books is the wolf in BORIS THE BORING BOAR. He's definitely out to make a meal of Boris, but he ends up becoming a vegetarian. I had a lot of fun writing the story. Speaking of wolves, there's BAD BOYS by Margie Palatini. Willamina and Wallanda are cleverly disguised as sheep in order to score a lamb chop or two. But they're outsmarted by the sheep who aren't exactly woolly brained. Then there's MARTHA WALKS THE DOG, where Martha the talking dog rescues the neighborhood from a bully dog with the help of a parrot. And, I think I mentioned this one somewhere else, THE RECESS QUEEN by Alexis O'Neill--also about bullies. I like my picture book villains served up with a dash of humor!

Londy: How do we make a villain believable when it isn't just one person? We've had some discussion on getting to know your villain and creating back-story for him/her, but what if it's, say, a group of tyrannical kings that the MC never comes into contact with? Any thoughts you have on this would be appreciated.

Ellen Jackson: A villain, or in the case you describe--an antagonist, can most definitely be a force for evil in your story. I've read stories where the Black Plague was the antagonist. In certain science fiction stories, the aliens don't appear but their effects are felt. I was just reading (one person's opinion) that in THE GREAT GATSBY, the entire decade of the 1920s is the antagonist. Quite a trick to pull that one off!

Ellen Jackson: There are several devices you can use to villainize a "group of tyrannical kings" who remain off-stage. Has anyone seen these kings? Have that person describe them. If no one has seen them, describe their destructive effects. Is this a realistic story or a fantasy? If it's a fantasy, find a symbol for them. Give that symbol an aura of horror and dread, so that whenever it appears, your reader shudders. Hope this helps. (It's a little hard for me to give specific advice when I don't know the genre you're writing for or the tone of your manuscript.)

Kimber: When Ellen mentioned giving the villians a symbol the first thing that popped in my head was from Harry Potter. The death eater symbol that was often seen in the air after they struck is a good example of a scary symbol I think. A lot of time the death eaters themselves weren't even seen but the symbol was hanging in the air above to scare all the spectators.

Ellen Jackson: That's a good one.

mariah: I know in some stories it's a matter of the MC not being confident enough in themselves, which then holds them back until the end when they figure out they can do this or that. So would that mean the MC is their own Villain? I hope that makes sense.

Ellen Jackson: I'd say that you're talking about an internal conflict, rather than a villain. Someone can be divided within himself--but I think a villain pretty much has to be external to the mc. Don't get hung up by definitions--not every story has to have a villain. However, almost every story has to have a conflict. I say "almost" because there are concept picture books and a few "slice of life" stories that don't really have much of a conflict. Remember there are exceptions to everything in writing. There really are no rules--just guidelines that can be helpful to beginning writers. But if you have a good reason for doing something different--go for it.

ellen: What would you say the distinction is between an antihero and a villain? Is it simply being a protagonist versus an antagonist? Or is there more to it?

Ellen Jackson: I think of an anti-hero as being a protagonist who isn't particularly good or heroic, but someone with whom the reader sympathizes, usually because of his human shortcomings. A villain is an evil character who is trying to stop the protagonist or main character from getting what he or she wants. Maybe a good example of an anti-hero is Holden Caulfield in The Catcher in the Rye. Or Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn.

ellen: Thanks! I wondered if that was the distinction, especially in the case of a MC who seems well and truly evil (like Artemis Fowl).

Ellen Jackson: Artemis isn't entirely evil. He's sympathetic to the environment, doesn't like to kill, and wants to improve his mother's mental health. He's really a trickster figure--so I guess I'd say he's more of an anti-hero. But I've heard other people label him a villain. Remember you don't have to get lost in these labels. All you really have to worry about is writing compelling characters.

Ellen Jackson: I found an interesting quote on real-life villains: Many attorneys will tell you that murderers are often calm and reasonable people, kindly, modest, and tolerant. But somewhere in their life, usually their intimate life, there is one person they feel they just have to kill. Part of the terror of crime is what seems absolutely normal about it. As for a childhood filled with poverty and deprivation, the recent crimes of Wall Street, apparently, were perpetrated by financially well-off, hard-working people.

Ellen Jackson: But that’s villainy in the real world. Do you think this kind of a villain would work in a book for children (mg or ya)? Or is it just too scary to suggest that normal, ordinary people are capable of terrible crimes? Sometimes I think we do an injustice to kids when we suggest (through literature) that villains are easily identifiable. On the other hand, we don't want to make them paranoid and fearful of other people.

Jan Fields: I have seen middle grade novels where the bad guy turned out to be someone the kids throught was really really nice. In the most recent Chris Grabenstein book in the Haunted Place series, the "bad guy" is a lady teacher who is really really nice and all the kids adore her. But she's evil. THE SMOKEY CORRIDOR (I looked it up). That's the book with the "nice" evil person.

ColoradoKate: As I consider writing a story with a true villain, I'm realizing that I'll want it to be fantasy--not high fantasy, but not contemporary realism either, for sure. Because a truly evil character in a contemporary realistic novel would be, I think, a way to give children nightmares. I mean, a MG version of In Cold Blood, for instance? I think not. Although... there is a lot of MG historical fiction where Hitler et al are the villain(s). In most cases, though, the story of the MC is somewhat removed from the worst of the evil, though not always. I'm thinking of Jane Yolen's The Devil's Arithmetic, much of which takes place in a concentration camp, and also her Briar Rose, although I guess that one is YA. Hmm. Does the fact that it's historical rather than contemporary provide the necessary emotional distance for the readers? Can anyone think of some MG contemporary realistic fiction with truly evil villains?

Mikki: What about the real-life villains who are psychopaths? Ted Bundy, for example, who was attractive, very smart, married twice, people thought he was a great person, but he was finally convicted of killing more than 50 women. John Wayne Gacy was the same, accepted by family, friends, neighbors...thought to be a quiet, unassuming man who was finally convicted of killing more that 32 young men, and burying the bodies of 28 of them under his own home. In both cases, and others, these men were thought to be intelligent, friendly men who were just "average guys."

Ellen Jackson: CK and Mikki--Amazon lists a fewYA books featuring serial killers. Most are nonfiction, but one or two are novels: TENDERNESS by Robert Cormier -- Grade 6 Up. Cormier is in top form in this chilling portrait of a serial murderer. Eric Poole has progressed from killing kittens, cats, and a canary to parents and unsuspecting young women. Now 18, he has paid for his mother and stepfather's murders with three years of juvenile detention and is ready to continue his "plan." Unfortunately, his looks and shallow charm are as pleasing on the outside as his character is ugly on the inside. The story unfolds through the eyes of two characters: Eric, and the luckless 15-year-old Lori, a runaway who met Eric once when she was 12 and is drawn to him like a moth to the flame. Even when she realizes his guilt, after he attempts to kill her, she can not desert him. The ugliness of the story contrasts with the beauty of the language....And (I almost forgot) there's COUNTERFEIT SON by Elaine Marie Alphin. Nothing I know of for MG though, and there probably shouldn't be.

Jan Fields: Thanks so much for joining us for these last three dayss of talking villains. It has been great. I know we have a lot to think about.

Cat: Thanks you so much for coming, Ellen! It was fantastic having you.

Ellen Jackson: It was great fun. Thanks for having me.