Institute Childrens Literature

Rx for Writers

Transcripts

(PART TWO: Interview with Dori Butler)

Sasquatch: I notice that you've done extensive work for Harcourt Brace's educational division. Is that also a type of packager?

Dori: No. Harcourt Brace is a publisher. A HUGE publisher. Even their educational division is huge. They have many different lines.

Sasquatch: I think you misunderstood my question about Harcourt Brace. Are you 'assigned' a subject with an outline, etc., to write about?

Dori: No. I'm one of their stable of writers. So whenever a new project comes along (which seems to be as soon as I've finished the last one), they call me up and ask me if I'm interested and how many pieces/what grade level would I like to do this time? Once I commit to x number of pieces for a particular project, then I have to get my topic approved. The contract will state what type of piece I'm writing -- narrative, how-to, advertisement or whatever it is, but then I have to get the subject approved. Often that is the hardest part of the assignment. You can't write about anything that would upset or offend even one person. I am constantly amazed by the subjects they turn down all because someone somewhere might not like it.

Sasquatch: Can you give an example of a 'project'?

Dori: I can't give you a specific example because the projects are all "secure." Much of what I've been doing has involved writing passages for tests. My projects have ranged from 35-word passages (easiest money I ever made!) to 1000 word stories. I tend to choose narratives (or stories) most often.

Sasquatch: How detailed are the outlines you are given? Are they very detailed, or do you have a situation that you can create any way you wish?

Dori: Do you mean the outlines for Sweet Valley books?

Sasquatch: Yes.

Dori: They're about 10 pages, single spaced -- but very indented. They usually include major plot points and then yes, I'm free to develop the scene however I want. There are always scenes that I made up, scenes that weren't part of the outline. Even with the outline, there's always a great deal of freedom. At least, that's my opinion. I know of other authors who only wrote one or two books for a series because they found the outlines too confining. It depends on your style, I guess.

Lee: I'm confused. They call you up -- as you are a regular writer -- but then you come up with the topic?

Dori: Lee, you're talking about the educational writing for Harcourt Brace, right?

Lee: Right.

Dori: Yes, that's right. They call me up and ask me how many pieces I want to do and what grade levels I want to write for. But then it's my responsibility to come up with the topics. Not only do I have to avoid things that someone might object to, I also have to avoid subjects they've already done. I imagine that's why I have to come up with the topic myself. It's probably hard for them to come up with topics. They've done so much already.

Lu: How did you initially get started with Harcourt Brace?

Dori: I sent them a query letter, list of credits, writing sample etc. and they apparently liked what they saw. They sent me a "writer's packet" and asked me to write any sort of passage (from the packet) that I wanted to. They bought that and then called me up and asked if I'd like to do some more.

Tonzo: Do you think writing for a packager/producer opened doors for you at other publishers (in addition to boosting your confidence and improving your writing)? In other words, is it always well looked upon as a writing credit?

Dori: That's an interesting question. Sometimes I go to conferences and when I hear editors talk, I get the impression they look down on series work. So I've been asking lots of editors whether it helps me or hurts me to list the series work I've done in my cover letters. (i.e. do I look like some hack who can only write series books?) But every editor I've asked has said I should definitely include it, that that's how many writers get their foot in the door. And it shows that I can write SOMETHING.

Amanda: I understand that houses produce their own series as well as buy series from packagers? If true, would you approach those editors the same way you would approach a packager?

Dori: Yes. And I have. In other words, I do have a proposal for a series, but rather than send it to a packager, I decided to start with a publisher. (I'm still waiting to hear.)

Tonzo: Are you familiar with Compass Productions and what they produce?

Dori: Sorry, no. I just looked them up in my SCBWI Guide to Book Producers --they're not listed there, either, so I can't help you.

Lee: With your series idea, why did you choose to go to a publisher first?

Dori: Because I already had something of a relationship with the editor (based on other manuscripts I'd sent her that she commented on, but didn't buy). And I just like the idea of starting with a publisher rather than a packager.

LibraryLady: You've mentioned SCBWI twice. How do you become a member of SCBWI and some of the other organizations you mentioned?

Dori: Go to www.scbwi.org. There's lots of information on the organization there, plus an application for membership that you can print out and send in. You can also find out about SCBWI events in your area on the web site. You don't have to be a member to attend events (it costs a little more if you're not a member.)

Tonzo: What does a packager do with a manuscript they've paid you an advance for and can't sell to a publisher?

Dori: I can't imagine that they'd pay you until the sell the manuscript. Actually, now that I think about it, I can think of a situation... I know someone who got caught in that kind of situation. She wrote the book, got paid, but either the packager never sold it or the publisher went out of business, I don't remember what the exact details were. But I remember she's stuck because she sold all rights.

Lee: Which do you prefer working through, a packager or a publisher?

Dori: They're very different experiences. I guess I prefer a publisher because the work I do for a publisher is truly my own. The work I do for a packager is nice because it pays well. It pads my checking account between sales to publishers. But it's a job. I do the best I can at that job. But it's still just a job -- it's not where my heart is.

Brenker: Do you use an agent to help with the contract negotiations?

Dori: I do on occasion. Sometimes I handle it all myself.

MODERATOR: Changing subjects now, you've also gone to the "other extreme" and published your books with small presses and regional presses. First, what's the definition of each?

Dori: That's a good question. A regional press publishes books that have something to do with a particular region. A small press is harder to define. A lot of small presses try to fill a particular niche, so all their books have something to do with Native Americans or adoption or whatever their niche is. I think the main distinction is a small press publishes just a few books per year. But don't quote me on that.

sweet: How can I find out about small presses?

Dori: SCBWI also has a list of small presses -- again, if you're a member, just send them an SASE and ask for it. (I can't plug SCBWI enough if you're serious about writing for children!)

MODERATOR: How can I find regional presses? Is there a list?

Dori: You can find them by paging through Literary Marketplace -- your local library should have a copy. Also, if you have the Writer's Market on CD, you can search by state.

MODERATOR: Why did you send your picture books to smaller publishers?

Dori: Well, I sent my state ABC book manuscripts to regional publishers because I thought a regional publisher would be more likely to share my vision of the book and because I thought they'd do a better job with marketing etc. But when I sent THE GREAT TOOTH FAIRY RIP OFF to Fairview Press (they're definitely a small press rather than a regional press), I wasn't thinking, "I want to send this to a small press." There was something in the SCBWI Bulletin (the newsletter that comes out every other month) about Fairview Press and the kind of book they were looking for and I remember thinking that my tooth fairy book fit that description.

Steve: What are your state ABC books?

Dori: M is for Minnesota, W is for Wisconsin (and I have another ABC book on Wisconsin in the works.)

MODERATOR: What are some advantages of working with smaller publishers?

Dori: I think you get more attention, both from your editor and from the marketing department. (Both publishers have treated me very well ) I think the contracts are less complicated. They tend to keep books in print longer.

MODERATOR: Are there disadvantages involved in working with smaller or regional presses?

Dori: You may get a smaller advance (though one of my regional publishers actually paid me a higher advance than many New York publishers were paying for picture books at the same time). Your print run may be lower (again, this was not my experience). You may or may not have smaller distribution. This is a hard question because small presses vary so much. I think the main thing to be concerned about is that you don't mistake a vanity press for a small press. Vanity presses expect you to foot some of the bill. You shouldn't do that. Publishers should pay YOU to publish your book. You shouldn't pay them.

MODERATOR: You mentioned more attention from marketing. Do you need to be more heavily involved in marketing and promoting with a smaller or regional press?

Dori: I don't know if I'd say you "NEED to" be more involved, but I think I've had MANY more opportunities to get involved in marketing and promoting than some of my friends who have published with New York publishers. When my books came out, I had many newspapers and radio stations call me for interviews. My books were front page news in some communities. I even had the opportunity to do a couple of TV interviews.

MODERATOR: That's really impressive! Dori, do small presses and regional presses get their books in the bookstores?

Dori: Sure, though maybe I should qualify that with "most" will get the books in the bookstores. In my experience, the regional presses will not only get your book into the large bookstores in the area, they'll also get it into the obscure little gift shops that larger publishers wouldn't. Again, beware the vanity publishers--they aren't as likely to get your book into the bookstores because they make their money from YOU rather than from book sales.

MODERATOR: Thank you for the warnings about vanity presses, Dori.

Lu: Do you illustrate your picture books?

Dori: No. I can hardly draw a straight line with a ruler. In all cases, my publishers found the illustrators.

Tonzo: Have you ever tried selling a picture book to a packager?

Dori: No, I haven't. I try and pay close attention to which publishers are publishing what kinds of books and target my submissions appropriately. I've never even considered trying a packager for any of my picture books.

LibraryLady: What was the very first piece of writing that you sold?

Dori: When I was in high school, I worked in my county library. The library had a book review column in the local newspaper. Sometimes they reviewed children's books. I talked my boss into letting me write the reviews. (I didn't get paid for those, though). The first thing I was paid for was a short story in Teen Quest magazine (they have since gone out of business).

LibraryLady: How long did you write before you first got published?

Dori: I've been writing my entire life. I wrote "novels" when I was in middle school. Once I actually started submitting, I got lucky and sold a story to the second place I'd sent it. I almost hate to admit that because it makes it look easy. Selling a children's story/book is not easy. It's not enough to just have a good piece of writing. I think you also have to get the right story to the right person at the right time.

Steve: How important to your career was it that you didn't have to hold down a day job when you were trying to write?

Dori: VERY important. I'm very lucky to have a supportive husband (supportive emotionally as well as financially).

Lu: Have you written anything that you could not sell?

Dori: I haven't even sold half of what I've written.

MODERATOR: I'm intrigued by that fact. Is that what new and experienced writers can expect?

Dori: Yes, I think that's probably what most writers can expect. You're not going to get rich writing for children.

Lee: Do you ever find your 'writer's block' is more like a general resistance and not really not knowing what to write?

Dori: A lot of it is fear. Fear of failure AND fear of success. Makes it kind of hard to write when you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Steve: Fear of success?

Dori: Yes, in some ways. I'm kind of quiet and shy -- I don't like to get out and promote the way I should. But it's more than that. If I write and sell a really wonderful book that's a lot to live up to. How do I know I'd ever be able to do it again?

Lu: How do you keep from getting discouraged when something doesn't sell?

Dori: I think it helps that I'm working on so many things. That way I'm not focusing on the one thing that isn't selling.

MODERATOR: I'm sorry to have to stop now, but our time is up. Thank you so much for your time and sharing your expertise with us, Dori!

Dori: Thanks for having me. It was fun!

MODERATOR: Next Thursday night we'll having our second "Open Forum" with me, Kristi Holl. I've has published over 50 magazine articles and stories, as well as 20+ books for the juvenile market. I welcome your questions on writing for these genres, plus time management, motivation, combining writing with parenting, dealing with writer's block, or anything else you'd like to discuss. Bring your questions to this moderated "Open Forum" next Thursday night! And . . . good night, everyone!

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