Jan is Jan Fields, moderator of this interview with Deborah Lynn Jacobs, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked Deborah.

Jan: Welcome to the Writer's Retreat Workshop! Deb, I'm so glad you could join us to talk about plot. It's one of my favorite subjects so I have to admit, I might sneak into a thread or two. But anyone who can handle all the plot threads of CHOICES, definitely has my respect. I have trouble enough handling one. So welcome and I know everyone is looking forward to absorbing some brilliance.

chippy: Hi Deborah and welcome. I'm looking forward to seeing your answers to the great questions -- I may have some myself as the workshop progresses.

Deb: Hi, Jan. Well, I made it, thanks to your help. I'm so glad to be here. Thanks, Chippy, and everyone for the kind welcome! I'm looking forward to spending some time here, talking about my favorite subject--writing!

YaYa: I was just curious as to when you first knew you wanted to be a writer? Did the decision enter your mind and 'simmer' for awhile or, is writing something that you just always knew you wanted to do? Thank you so much.

Deb: My friends said I was always a writer, but I'm not sure. I wanted to be a biologist or a physical therapist. Somehow, I ended up studying psychology. My first careers were counselor, and then instructor--both at community colleges. I wrote my first book at the age of eight. It was a space opera, like Star Wars only not as good. I got stuck in the middle and didn't finish it. As a teen, I wrote for the school newspaper, but never thought of writing as a career. I wanted something more stable, with a steady income. Ha, ha--if I only knew I'd be a novelist one day!

Deb: As a counselor, I found ways to incorporate writing into my job--a departmental newsletter, for example, and a guide I wrote for adults who were returning to school. Later, when we moved to a small northern town, I couldn't do the same work. So, I taught a little at the college, and started writing for the two town newspapers and touristy magazines. Then, I tried my hand at an adult science fiction novel (it was terrible writing!) and finally started writing for teens. I took small steps, I guess, never dreaming that I'd get published--but hoping I would!!!

Yaya: I think my brain is out to lunch, but would you mind explaining just what a plot is?

Deb: I once asked a bunch of published authors to define plot. I got as many answers as authors. I think plot is a topic that isn't often addressed in workshops or online communities. It seems nebulous, undefinable. If anyone has a good "how-to" reference book on plot, I'd love to hear it! Okay, so here's a stab at a definition: Plot is story. It is what happens in your novel, or picture book or short story. It's composed of the main action, the events that make up your tale. One way of looking at plot is the three act play model. Act 1--introduce your main character. Introduce an event which is about to change their life. Act 1--create a series of crises to challenge your main character. Each crisis forces the main character to act, to choose a course of action. Make each new crisis worst than the last. Show the internal conflict the character feels in each crisis. Now, when things look their worst (the black moment) you reach the worst crisis of all--this is your climax. Your character will survive the climax by using the knowledge, skills or personal growth that he or she developed by confronting each crisis. When things are at their worst, your character finds a way out of the situation. Act 3 is where you tie up the loose ends. Hope this helps!

Jan: Hey, I wanna be one of those 'as many answers as writers folks' so I'm going to toss in my two cents. Plot happens when you have strong, purposeful, well-motivated action that moves toward a specific goal. By goal, I don't mean the character has to have a goal (though often they do), but the story has to have a goal. When you have a plot, you reach the goal and you know that the story is done. A story with a plot doesn't just peter out when you get tired of writing.

Jan: I know folks who try to use chronology to structure story because they don't have a plot. So they'll have a character get up, do a bunch of stuff, and then go to bed at night -- and they think it's a plot because it has a beginning (they got out of bed), a middle (they did a bunch of stuff) and they eventually went to bed at the end. Bit that's not plot. Plot isn't just stuff happening. Plot is very purposeful, motivated, linked stuff happening.

Jan: Plot, as Deb said, it forced on the character. It's pressure that forces action and the action continues forward until the plot is resolved...it won't peter out, it'll conclude.

ColoradoKate: What kind of planning do you do, in terms of plotting, before you start writing the first chapter? Outline? Sticky notes? Separate outlines-or-whatnot for each subplot, or all in one? Or are you a pantser? Does it vary from ms to ms? I'm thinking that for CHOICES, at least, you must have had a whole roomful of charts or something... yes? No?

Deb: Yes, I had a big flow chart for Choices! For those of you who haven't read it, the book is about Kathleen and how her reality splits with every major choice she makes. The story breaks into several story lines--Kathleen, Kate, Kay, Kathy. My job was to keep the storylines straight. To do that, I flow charted it, the way I used to flow chart a computer program back in the old days (when I actually spoke Basic, and Fortran!!!!) I needed to know what was happening in each girl's universe, even when the story wasn't following her. I had to get the continuity right, or I'd look like an idiot. When I got the galleys of the book, I checked every branch of that flow chart carefully! I even woke up in a panic at three a.m. and went dashing downstairs to check.

Deb: I think I work a little differently with each book. Powers--I wasn't really sure where the story was going, and, in fact, wrote it about three different ways. Choices--I had an idea of what roles the main characters must play, what the big twist would be, but wasn't sure of the ending. I originally wrote it with a different ending, but my critique buds said it was too happy, and that things don't turn out win-win in the real world.

Deb: My agent has another book of mine, and I didn't know the ending until I wrote it. When I revised, I changed it.

Deb: With my work-in-progress, I am loosely following my outline, but feel okay about changing it as I go. Sometimes a character will do or say something that changes everything! I need an outline for this book, as it will run long and cover more territory than my other books. I need to know what will happen down the road so that I can foreshadow it in the early chapters.

Deb: I tend to think of a premise--a "what if?" Then, I imagine the kind of character who will suffer the most in this situation. What if a hot guy showed up at school and could read your mind? Who would have trouble with that? My main character was shy, and thought of herself as a Watcher. She wasn't equipped to handle a boy who was a player--so there was the conflict.

Deb: Okay, so I start with the premise, create the characters and start writing. The first few scenes are easy for me. Then, I get a little bogged down and grab a notebook--like the lined notebooks you used in high school? I start sketching my characters, talking to them, finding out what they want and need. I brainstorm plot ideas, again playing the "what if?" game and following each "what if" to its logical conclusion. I try to create a few twists. I don't usually plan a subplot--that just seems to come out of the characters' needs and wishes.

Deb: So, I'm kind of a pantser, but when I get stuck I brainstorm on paper and make an outline. Sometimes I can see my way to the end of the book, and sometimes the outline spans the next few chapters. I fill up two or three full sized notebooks, longhand, for each book--plot ideas, characterization stuff, what ifs and so on. I've tried sticky notes--didn't work. Tried a white board--didn't work. Tried index cards--REALLY didn't work!

Deb: There's a program I like, called Writer's Cafe, that allows you to track your plots and subplots. It's free, in the short version, and cheap if you buy the complete version. It has a neat function that allows you to link to web info that you used in your research. I found it useful, but sometimes found that tracking what I was doing took too much time away from the actual writing.

Deb: I think every person has their own creative process. I also find mine varies with the book!

mmmgood: Before signing up for this course, I always thought of "plot" as the basic premise of any given story, along with a logical sequence of events. I’ve learned here that my stories need to include conflict and resolution as well. My writing is particularly focused on picture books and poetry. Is it absolutely necessary to have conflict represented in each and every piece? Isn't it ever acceptable just to simply write something that is enjoyable and fun, with no conflict/resolution?

Deb: Hi Marie. I've been thinking a lot about your question. A few years ago, I might have said, "no," but now I'm not sure about that.

Deb: Let's look at poetry first. Do you need conflict? I'm not sure you do, especially in a poem written for younger children. Little kids like reading about things they can identify with, like splashing in a puddle on a rainy day or finding a worm in the garden. I would argue, however, that even a simple poem, a short poem, needs to tell a story. It needs a beginning, middle and end. It needs to convey something--a thought, a feeling, an emotion--and resonate with the reader. Does it necessarily need conflict? I'm not sure.

Deb: My understanding is that picture books are the same in terms of needing to tell a story, to have a beginning, middle and end, to have character growth and a satisfying story arc. I'd also argue that a picture book needs conflict. A story is a story is a story, whether it be a short story, a picture book or a novel. Conflict drives story. It's what makes the story interesting, and pulls the reader in. The conflict in a picture book would be age appropriate, obviously, and something that a child can relate to. It doesn't have to be conflict on a grand scale, but I do think it needs to be present. I can think of a few exceptions to that rule--books that are "quiet" like On A Wintry Morning, by Dori Chaconas. It's a sweet story of a little girl and her dad walking out on a wintry morning. (I don't remember any conflict in it, but it's been a long while since I've read it.)

Deb: Most picture books, however, will have a character who has a goal, and must overcome obstacles in their attempt to reach that goal. In Dori's book, One Little Mouse, the mouse finds her home is too small, and so goes in search of a new one. It's beautifully illustrated, and demonstrates all the elements of "story"--a strong main character, internal conflict (my house is too small), external conflict (when mouse meets other critters) and a satisfying ending.

Deb: So, I do think picture books need conflict to drive the story. Well, at least that's my opinion! I'd love to hear what the picture book writers out there think!

Jan: That's one I've been thinking about too and the more I read and listen to agents, the more I think this: If the primary audience for the book is the parents, you don't need conflict. Many of the "I love you a bunch" picture books don't have conflict and also tend to be purchased by parents because they appeal to parents. On a Wintry Morning is a great example. It's basically a baby's day out with Daddy and is hugely appealing to parents (my husband read it to our baby girl every day for her first year and a half).

Jan: Then she reached a point where she chose the books and she picked books more like One Little Mouse -- when she became the target audience and able to choose a book, she chose one with more story and sense of conflict (or at least goal). Then about the only "I love you a bunch" picture book she would choose was the one with Little Nutbrown Hare and Big Nutbrown Hare because that's a competition, and she knew it. Once she could talk, she would even add a line so that the Little Nutbrown Hare "wins" the competition because she knew what the core conflict was and wanted to see the kid win, even when she was a toddler.

Jan: So, I believe you can sell a picture book without conflict -- but if you want your audience to be the kids and not the parents, you need the conflict. Goodnight Moon works great for parents and babies but Runaway Bunny wins hands down once the kid is picking because it's got the conflict.

kidztales: I'm currently writing a YA historical fiction book. Little is known about the 2 heroines involved. In fact, the MA historical society recently emailed me to tell me that the girls true ages were 17 & 21 years old. My question: how many twists and turns should I put in this story? How much action? I know that the older the child gets the more action you put in & the more complex the story should be. I am putting in a little romance because of the girls ages but I'd like to keep it factual to the period (1814). I've never written for this age group before. I usually write for the younger crowd.

Deb: Hi Kidztales. Thanks for the question. Wow, that's a bit of a hard one. The short answer is you need enough plot twists and turns to adequately tell your story. That's not very helpful, though, is it? Most young adult novels run about 200 manuscript pages, double spaced, about 50-60,000 words. Historical fiction might go longer than this. So, length is one thing to keep in mind.

Deb: It sounds like your romantic angle will be your subplot, with your main plot following the two girls. So far, so good! Some writers talk about plot points, and try to have at least three major plot points. These are the points in your story where something big happens, the heroine's situation becomes more desperate, and she is pushed further from her goals.

Deb: Other writers use the idea of a three act play. In Act 1, you introduce your setting and characters and establish their goals. At the end of Act 1, you have a major plot point--the moment when something happens, when the character's life changes forever. This sets up Act 2. In Act 2, the longest act, you have your plot twists and turns. Each twist pushes your character further away from her goals. The conflict may be external as well as internal. In Act 2, many writers incorporate three major plot twists, but that's not a hard and fast rule. The basic idea is to make things very very bad for your character. Set up obstacles, push her further away from her goal. At the end of Act 2, you have a "dark moment" where all appears to be lost. How your character chooses to deal with this dark moment is your climax and the end of Act 2. Act 3 is the resolution or denouement, where you neatly tie up the loose ends and show how your character has grown as a result of all these challenges and obstacles.

Deb: You can also google "The Hero's Journey." Some writers swear by this, and others, like me, understand the basic concepts of the hero's journey but have trouble applying it to their own work!! I hope this helps! The other advice I have is to read as many ya novels as you can. Make sure they're recent--say within the last five years. You'll get a feeling for how complex most novels are for that age group. Good luck and have fun with it!

ColoradoKate: My MG novels tend, I think, to be a little too simple, and end up being on the short side, too. They do have some subplots, and I should probably develop those more, but I'm wondering if I could actually weave in whole new subplots during revision? Have you ever done that? Is it doable? Is it advisable?

Deb: Hi Kate. I've never woven in a subplot during revision, but I have, upon an editor's request, taken out an entire subplot! It wasn't easy, believe you me, but it was doable. This was for Powers. I had an Internet bullying subplot, where someone sent a nasty email, including very incriminating pictures, to every student's email account. They were targeting a girl who had a bit of a reputation, and showed her doing....uh, compromising acts. (Fake photo, of course.)

Deb: Anyway, the editor felt the story was too long and complicated. We took out the subplot, which was not an easy task. Powers was written in two voices, alternating chapters, so any plot changes had a wicked ripple effect. But, it was doable. (Nearly tore my hair out, but I did it! )

Deb: So, yes, give it a go. Just save a copy of your old work and start weaving in a new version. You might find it's not as hard as you think. Sometimes all you need to plump up a subplot are a few paragraphs here and there, or a few rewritten chapters. Good luck!

ColoradoKate: Thanks, Deb. Yeah, I think it must be easier to add a subplot than to remove one. I'd be waking in the middle of the night, wondering if I'd left traces of it! So I'm encouraged. Now to decide what it'll be about...

Deb: Hi Kate. You know, I'm rethinking what I said. Yes, I did add a subplot. To Powers. The Internet bullying subplot. Then I took it out. (Call me crazy.....) So, I do think it's doable. Totally. You have to be ruthless, though, and look at your ms as if you were the editor. Words are just words--you can add them and take them away. Just keep copies of everything. I label my mss by the date where I changed something major--like 2009-08-10. There are so many ways to tell a particular story. Jump in. Keep copies. Play with it. If writing isn't fun, why are we doing it?

Louisa: Do the YA of to-day prefer to read YA novels or are they more into YA magazines? (Such as Seventeen.)

Jan: I'm sure Deb has a take on this, but I wanted to throw in my two cents anyway. Outside of some genre (speculative fiction primarily), most fiction these days for teens comes in the form of novels or anthologies (very few of these). Teens don't turn to magazines for fiction much with the exception of speculative fiction -- there are quite a number of teen subscribers to the speculative fiction magazines that cover both teens and adults. Even teen fiction markets like Seventeen and Cicada have recognized that -- Seventeen doesn't have fiction in every issue (though they do have it in many) and Cicada mainly takes fiction from Young Adults (and it's a literary magazine!)

Jan: But teens do turn to short forms for nonfiction. For some, this means magazines but for many, they turn to online to seek out the latest and greatest in fashion, beauty, celebrities and such. This has been harsh on the teen magazine market and we've lost quite a few in the last years. But I haven't seen a lot of teen nonfiction book titles come through, as a reviewer. Most of the ones I have seen have been about relationships.

Deb: Oh, good. I'm glad you answered, Jan. I agree with what you said--magazines for fiction, not so much, except for the spec. fiction magazine teen/adult crossover. I think with speculative fiction, there's a history of teens reading short fiction aimed at adults. In terms of keeping up with "stuff," I agree that teens get a lot of their info online. Well, um, me too, though I'm no longer a teen. It's easier, often (mostly?) free, and served up fresh each day. I don't know many teens who will buy a mag like Seventeen. When I was a teen, it was certainly aimed at our market (teens) but I wasn't much interested in the content. The content has changed, obviously,(more sophisticated) but it's available to a great extent online. So why buy the magazine? The young adult novel market is still selling, despite the economy.

chalice: I know that the more twists and turns in your story the more exciting it can be, but how do you judge when enough is just enough? While you don't want to run on, and on, and aggravate the reader, you do want an editor to buy your book. Are there a certain number of twists and turns you can use in the industry that is considered "standard" or "safe"?

Deb: Maria, if there is, I haven't heard of it. I don't think there's a standard. Some quieter stories may have fewer twists and turns. A real yarn might have you gasping at the turns of events. I'd say, first of all, each story twist has to be believable. It has to be organic, growing out of your character's motivation or some external conflict, like a villain (but a believable villain, with his own motivation, not a stereotype!) You need to balance narrative details with action, which can be a challenge. Do you have a critique group? A trusted group of writers can look at your story and give you valuable feedback. You don't actually need to meet in person--all of my crit groups have been "virtual" with members exchanging stories by email. Personally, I love a story that messes with my head, and twists like a tornado. It does, however, have to be believable and grow out of the main character's motivation. That's the benchmark for me, at least.

chalice: I think I get it now, I never thought of it that way! So, having plot twists and turns for the excitement factor isn't the right way to go. It's better do delve into the stenghts and weaknesses of the characters and create plot points from their motivations. That's awesome!

Deb: Yes, that's a good way to phrase it! Plot is your story arc--the sequence of events that takes your story from beginning to end. But, what makes a story satisfying is the character's emotional arc. By reacting to events, your character grows and changes throughout the story. There will be a "black moment" where it appears all is lost (the climax.) Your character must decide how to act in that moment. This choice will define her--she will never be the same again. After the climax, you quickly tie up loose ends and it will be clear to you, the author, that your story has reached its natural ending. To use my own book as an example (which I hope is okay to do), in Choices Kathleen's initial problem is that she's a doormat and lets her friend Jen make decisions for her. Because she goes to a party with Jen--Jen's idea, not hers--she calls her brother for a ride home. He gets into a car accident and dies. She is overwhelmed with guilt. End of Act 1. In Act 2, strange things begin to happen to Kathleen. How she reacts changes her, and changes her world and how people view her. The story builds to a climax where Kathleen must make a decision--on her own--and it's an irreversible decision. She reaches her goal of deciding for herself, and the story is over. Does that help at all?

Carmen: In your experience how can a writer balance action and dialogue within the plot?

Deb: Hi Carmen! I used the shrunken manuscript technique. As far as I know, it was invented by Darcy Pattison, but I could be wrong about that. She showed us the method in a weekend workshop I attended--a novel revision weekend. The basic idea is this: print out your ms in tiny print, as tiny as you can actually read. Invest in a bunch of pretty highlighter markers. Now, you can highlight dialogue, action, plot, theme, narrative, description, or whatever you want! In my wip, I recently highlighted plot, the mc's rebellion, theme, and the romance angle.

Deb: Now, here's the part that will make your partner/family/kids/cat/dog think you have lost your mind completely. You take your prettily colored ms and lay it out on the floor. Voila. A visual! You can see if you dropped a character, or if you have too little dialogue, or if the action slowed down. It's a very effective technique, for me at least. I don't think you can have too much dialogue, at least not in middle grade or young adult. If it's good dialogue, good "teenspeak" and advances the plot (without info-dumping), and reveals character, then you can't lose. Action--stuff happening--can drive your plot. What's not to love about an action-filled novel or short story? Even a story written for "littlies" needs action, and good dialogue.

Deb: Where some beginning writers have difficulty (and I'm not suggesting you!!) is "telling" too much. They info-dump, or include whole long descriptions of the main character, or secondary characters, or setting or whatever. Sometimes, they do the "So, as you know, Bob," thing, where they have the characters tell each other stuff that the characters already know.

Yaya: I'd like to know if you have your plot pretty much worked out before you start writing or, does the plot begin to come forth as the words leak from your fingertips?

Deb: I think I come up with the premise first, then character. My plots seem to evolve from that--premise and character. What does my character want? What obstacles will block her from that goal? In Powers, Gwen wanted to be invisible. Adrian dragged her into the spotlight. In Choices, Kathleen wanted to be less of a doormat, and stand up to her friend, Jen. I often just start writing. Beginnings are easy for me. Middles--ahhh, middles. They're the very devil, and where I need to brainstorm possible plot twists and ask myself, "what the heck am I trying to say, anyway?" For most books, I have a general idea of what I'm trying to say, and what my ending should be (though I often change my endings later.) My difficulty is the middle, where I need to think of plot twists, subplots, and the like.

Emac: Deborah, your response reminds me of an interview with Richard Peck. He said first he decides on the journey, and then he asks himself which character will benefit most from it.

mmmgood: So, Deborah, it sounds like you would not label yourself as an "outline" type of writer. Correct?

Deb: Yes, I do outline--sometimes. It varies by book. Usually I start writing, because the concept/premise/character won't shut up in my head! After a few chapters, I do a rough outline. It will change as I go along, but at least I have a vague idea of where I'm heading.

Deb: In my current wip, I actually put together a synopsis and an outline. It's a big story, and I need to know where I'm going. I actually thought it might be a trilogy, but I'm thinking now of doing it as one looooonnnnnggggg book.

Deb: I do find my process is different for different books. Also, the more experienced I get, the more I see the value of an outline or at least some kind of road map. It's like planning a vacation--you plan the route, but then feel free to stray, perhaps exploring a smaller highway, or stopping at a little town, or staying longer than you expected at one location.

Deb: Just to put things in perspective--I've been writing books for more than a decade. I've written 12 or so, if you count the ones I majorly revised. I've sold three. One more is in my agent's hands, and my wip is coming along--I'm up to page 139. This is not a career choice for the impatient. Write, write, write, read, read, read, and, most importantly--be fearless in your revisions. Save all old copies, as you may wish to go back to them, but feel quite free to change plot lines, kill off characters and so on.

Chippy: I see in one of the other posts you were talking about plots and subplots. What is the difference between the two, and how do you add a subplot into a story/book etc.?

Deb: Good question. I thought about it last night, and this morning. I have trouble with the concept of subplot. I am not aware of building subplots into my own work. They must be there, because one reviewer said I had "nicely developed subplots" dealing with friendship, family and so on. Hmmm....cool.

Deb: I tend to think of relationships, rather than subplots. Who is the protagonist's best friend? Will that friend stick by her, or betray her? Who is her love interest? What is their relationship like? Is he a wimp, or an overbearing jerk? Are they in love? Will their love survive adversity? So, for me, the plot is the main story, but I explore relationships in the subplots. Subplots are shorter and less complex than your main plot. They add another dimension to your main plot. They may intersect with the main plot, in that what happens in a subplot might influence your protagonists actions in the main plot.

Deb: For example, in the show HOUSE there is always a main plot. Some person gets sick and Dr. House figures out what wrong with him or her. The subplots are the interactions House has with other people--his boss, his students, his best friend, and even his own drug addiction. These subplots flesh out his character and make him real. We see his struggles, his inner conflict, and we identify with him--even though he is an unlikeable, cantankerous, irascible, selfish character. The same formula works for MEDIUM, or BONES. Clear main plots, supported by subplots--like Bone's relationship with her father or with the cop-guy (he played Angel on Buffy.)

Deb: Or BUFFY, for that matter. In that case, the writers kept Buffy as the protagonist, but developed sub-plots for the other characters--Angel, Willow, Zander. Each sub-plot was a smaller story, and each contributed to the overall story arc of the series.

Deb: In CITY OF EMBER, the main plot is carried by Lorna and Doon, who have a clear goal--leave the city before it falls apart completely. But the mayor and the creepy storeroom guy had subplots of their own.

Deb: Sometimes, the subplot can contrast with the main plot or complement it. In EMBER, the mayor's greed acted as a foil to Lorna's selflessness (when she went back for her little sis.)

Deb: So, a subplot might reflect the theme of your novel, might flesh out a main character, might show the main character's inner conflict, might add an interesting angle from the point of view of a secondary character--but in all cases it supports your main story. Remember ER? There was always a main plot, such as "young man gets involved with gang and gets shot." There'd be a subplot, such as, "mother of young man devastated by this" and maybe another subplot "young man's minister offers comfort and counseling." There were always subplots, involving the doctors, their families, their relationships, such as "doctor discovers his young son is deaf" or "doctor battles the bottle." But what I loved about that show is this: the writers tied together the main plot and subplots in each episode. They revolved around a theme, which was often stated in the episode's title. The theme might be family, or faith, or friendship, or whatever, but every subplot reflected the theme.

Deb: I found a great site, with some terrific articles. http://www.svic.net/pearl/articles.html Check out the ABC's of Subplots, by Mary Lynn Mercer. It's the best article I've read about subplots.

Okami: Up until now I've used chapter-by-chapter outlines, which I still like using, but was wondering if you knew any other methods of keeping story specifics better organized. I was thinking of doing a synopsis-like sketch that would give the bullet points I know now about each story and just change it as needed when it goes through the revision process. Do you have any tips on organizing both your plot materials and your time. Also, you mentioned that you wrote multiple versions of POWERS, where there certain key elements that remained constant throughout all those versions?

Deb: I'm not a very organized person, both in writing and in my personal life. Your outline sounds like a good idea, as does your synopsis with bullet points. I usually write out what happens in each chapter--either in a notebook, my whiteboard, or in chart form (with branches for the different plot lines) I often have two or three notebooks for each novel, filled with character sketches, "what if" scenarios, alternate plot ideas and so on. When I get stuck, I write one sentence about each scene. This keeps the scenes fresh in my memory, and helps me brainstorm what might happen next.

Deb: One program I found useful is Writer's Cafe. You can find it here: http://www.writerscafe.co.uk/ It's quite easy to use, and is very visual. It lets you use virtual index cards to track different aspects of your story. In my work-in-progress, I'm tracking several elements: plot, internal conflict, external conflict, conflict with parents, relationship with boyfriend, powers, phobias and threat from the bad guys. The only problem is that I hate organizing or tracking, so I haven't been updating my notes. I've been writing!

Deb: I suspect you are an organized person. I'd say stick with whatever seems to work for you!

Deb: About Powers--let's see--it was always written in two voices, originally Adrian's voice was past tense but he sounded like a girl, so I changed his voice to present tense and kept Gwen's in past tense. The major conflict was always between Gwen and Adrian, though I made him more of a "player" in later versions. There was always an arsonist, a death, etc. although in an early version Gwen was convinced that Adrian was the arsonist. She called the police, who questioned him. While he was being questioned, the real arsonist was tying up Gwen and Joanne and setting a fire.

Deb: Also, in an early version, Joanne got Adrian, and Adrian and Gwen struck an uneasy alliance (but not friendship and nothing romantic!) Never be afraid to fiddle with plot lines!

Yaya: Do you generally write, using situations from your past to trigger an idea or, are your ideas more abstract in the beginning?

Deb: I'd say both. I had precognitive dreams as a teen, like Gwen. I was shy, a Watcher, like her. And, like Kathleen in Choices, I've always wondered about the road not taken. The next novel came out of a fascination with dreaming. My wip is rather political--surprising because I'm not political at all. I am writing about a future world, where civil liberties have been curtailed (wrong word, but I can't find the word I want.) Anyway, it's a dystopia, based very loosely on some things happening in the world right now!

Rose: i want to know what exactly is a crisis and climax? and does picture books have crisis in them?

Deb: I think, earlier, I used the word plot points rather than crisis. To me, they're kind of the same. Crisis, however, is a better word, so let's go with that. In a few other posts, I talked about plot as being a three act play.
Act 1--introduce setting, character, situation. Have something big happen that changes your character's life. (This doesn't have to be big, big, it can be more of an emotional event if you like.)
Act 2--your character will deal with a series of crises (why does that spelling look wrong?) Each crisis will be worst than the last. Each crisis will be solved by your main character resolving inner conflict, drawing on their strength, or skill or knowledge. The last crisis is the dark moment, where all seems lost. This last crisis is your climax.
Example: Cedric is dead, Harry is in the cemetery about to face off with Voldemort. The crisis is huge, and the stakes enormous!

Deb: Your character should have grown in some way, by facing each crisis. She will use this growth--whether it be emotional maturity, knowledge, skills or whatever, to get through this final crisis, the climax of your book. In Act 3 you tie up the loose ends and show how your character has changed or grown.

Deb: OOOOPPPPPSSSSS. Didn't answer your second question. Jan, please jump in here. I'm more of a young adult writer than a picture book writer. I would say some picture books definitely have crises and a climax. Look at Click, Clack, Moo or Duck for President. Clear conflict, rising crises, climax, ending. Just like a novel, only shorter and very funny. Other picture books, the one's Jan said are quieter and perhaps written more for the parent than the child, may not have that kind of conflict and crises.

Jan: Many picture books do have a classic story plot arc (and I've heard agents say that if they're going to rep a picture book, it's going to have a plot arc).

Jan: Now having said that. Some picture books are character studies (the first OLIVIA for example) or they are vignettes (a touching moment in time) -- but often the ones that fall into these categories are done by authors who are illustrators (I've spent a lot of time reading these and analyzing them). An illustrator can put the story into the pictures while the words are few and more of a character study or move of a "moment."

Jan: So, picture books with some kind of plot arc are easier to sell. But a crisis for a picture book is pretty different than a crisis for a novel. For example, in WHERE THE WILD THINGS ARE -- Max reaches a crisis. He has exactly what he thinks he wants -- he's the king of the Wild Things. He can do anything he wants. The wilder he is, the more they love him. But he reaches an inner crisis -- this isn't what he wants at all. So he has to stand up to the wild things that want to keep him as king forever and he has to leave...and go home where real love lives.

Jan: Even DON'T LET THE PIGEON DRIVE THE BUS, which doesn't have a real plot arc does have conflict. The pigeon is in conflict with the reader in that one (a clever twist) -- and the reader becomes a kind of main character because the reader has to refuse the pigeon.

Jan: Picture books are a unique art form...but the more you study them, the more you can get a sense of how conflict and crisis and plot work in the unusual form. Keep in mind though, that some of that might appear in the pictures...the words are not the only delivery mechanism for story in a picture book.

Deb: Good point about the pictures helping to carry the story. I have to admit I haven't studied picture books much, so it's great to get the opinion of an expert!

mrmuro: Have you ever gotten to the point where a character has to decide when as a writer you just can't fathom what they ought to do? I have a character who has to choose between going to heaven or staying on the mortal plane? He is torn. I am torn. Story has come to standstill. What is your recommendation in these situations?

Deb: Ouch. Yes, that's happened to me. I keep changing my endings because of that. Seriously! There are three techniques I would recommend: brainstorming, taking the story to its logical conclusion and writing it both ways.

Deb: Brainstorming--grab paper or a white board or a big piece of construction paper. Write "character goes to heaven." Now, draw a snowflake-y thing. (I wish I could sketch it for you.) What I mean is this: given your character does "x" what are all the possible ramifications. Draw a line out from "character goes to heaven" and write down one possibility. Write down a second possibility. A third, and so on. So now you'll have a snowflake--a single starting point, with lines going every which way with all the consequences you can brainstorm. This exercise may free up your mind and you may find a particular course of action appeals to you.

Deb: Second idea--branching and taking your plot to a logical conclusion. A friend of mine described this. She sees plot as a tree with many branches. She follows each branch, each decision point, to its logical conclusion. Then she runs down the branch to where it split and follows that possibility--kind of like a squirrel running all over a tree only more writer-ly

Deb: Third idea--write both endings. Tell the story both ways. See which is more emotionally satisfying. Sure, it takes time to do this, but it may get you out of the standstill.

Emac: I was recently reading a story which seemed to have a conflict, but there was no real suspense. I had to make myself keep reading, because I really didn't care what was going to happen. I'd like to know how you create a good "I can't put this book down" suspense with plot.

Deb: Conflict but no suspense? Hmmmm.....was it because the story was too transparent? Did you know how it had to end? I'm trying to think of a book I've read recently that struck me that way. There is one, but I won't mention the name, ha ha. What was wrong was that the conflict felt manufactured. It was external conflict, and there's nothing wrong with that. But there was no internal conflict. The character just reacted to challenges and obstacles. She didn't grow, didn't get all conflicted in her own mind, just didn't react except to beat up the bad guys. It was a hero-type kicks bad guy a** story, but it fell flat because the characterization just wasn't there.

Deb: The "I can't put this book down" feeling, for me at least, comes when I care about the characters. If they are unique and interesting, I will care about their plight. If they show some internal conflict, I will identify with them. Who doesn't have a fear of something--the dark, spiders, whatever? Who doesn't want to be liked? Who has never felt embarrassed by a friend or family member?

Deb: One book I loved was RULES, by Cynthia Lord. Her mc faced external conflict, but the real suspense was more subtle. Would her mc give in to peer pressure and betray a friend? Or would she do the honorable thing, even if it make her unpopular?

Deb: Right now, I'm reading IMPOSSIBLE, by Nancy Werlin. Well, the mc is delightful, wearing high top sneakers to the prom. Her romantic interest has intriguing internal conflicts, and the mysterious man is very, very mysterious. I'm only a few chapters in and I'm hooked. The character has some weird problems--plot spoiler!!!!! (Mom's a bag lady, but you find that out in the first chapter or two.) So, I love this character already because she is quirky and she is embarrassed by her mom. I can't wait to see what happens to her. For me, that's suspense. What will happen to this main character who I suddenly care deeply about?

Deb: Some books which helped me, in terms of plotting, conflict and suspense, were:
Beginnings, Middles and Ends, Nancy Kress, Writers Digest Books, 1993
Scene and Structure, Jack M. Bickham, Writers Digest Books, 1993
Characters, Emoiton and Viewpoint, Nancy Kress, Writers Digest Books, 2005
Self-Editing for Fiction Writers, Renni Browne and Dave King, HarperCollins, 2004
The First Five Pages, Noah Lukeman, Fireside Books, 2000
Writing the Blockbuster Novel, Albert Zuckerman, Writers Digest, 1994
Hope this helps. Thanks for the great question, Beth. It made me think!

Emac: Ran out and got your book at the library and whipped it down this morning. Thought it was an excellent idea for a book, and I can see how it will be very appealing to teens. It's a little wild because of the alternate universes (sounds like a SG-1 episode), but I was wondering how many plot lines are in it? What do you consider a plot line? Is it one person's story, or is it all the issues that character is dealing with?

Deb: That's a surprisingly difficult question to answer. I would say Choices has three plot lines--Kathleen, Kate, Kay. There was another girl--Kathy--but her story only appeared briefly. I actually charted more plot lines than that--eight in all. I needed to know what was happening in the other universes!

Deb: PLOT SPOILER: For those who haven't read it, Choices is the story of a girl who skips between copies of herself in many alternate universes, living out the consequences of her decisions in each universe.

Deb: I limited the story to the three points of view. I felt that more than that would confuse the reader. Although there were three story lines, they were all braided together. What Kay learned in one universe would change her actions, as Kathleen, in another. In a way, the three girls were all one person. It was fun to write! I don't seem to do "simple" plot structures. Powers was done in two voices, Choices in three, and the next thing I wrote consisted of two parallel plots which intersect at critical points and finally join in the end. Thanks for taking Choices out of the library. That's flattering!

Yaya: You write books with serious conflict in them. Is that difficult to sell to a publisher? Also, are your books scary? I mostly read books that are more for the "Under ten or twelve year old" reader. And actually, six and seven year old stories completely capture my attention.

Deb: Choices is written for 12 and up. It's filed in the young adult section, not the juvenile section, because some of Kathleen's choices were bad--drugs, drinking, etc. I actually feel the book should be labeled older young adult, for 14 and up. The critics didn't criticize it for the questionable actions of some of the characters, however. This is because each choice carried consequences. The girls didn't get away with their bad decisions--there were clear consequences.

Deb: I was afraid the book might come across as too moralistic, which is odd because there was--well, drinking, drugs, an attempt at sex, etc. My point was that we all make choices, and even a small, small decision can change your life forever. I needed to let Kathleen break out of her goody-goody role, go wild, and see "the road not taken." I hope teens will think about their own choices in life when they read the book. The original ending of Choices was more win-win, but my critique buds said it was too pat--there was no sacrifice, as there often is in real life when you have to make a very difficult choice. So, I changed it. Yaya, it is very, very easy to sell a book with conflict. A story without conflict is sometimes called "quiet, slow, literary, character-driven" and is a harder sell. (In the teen market, that is. Literary books still sell in the adult market. I find them boring, and will pick up a good Stephen King any day!!)

Claudette: Can you tell me just how tight the plot needs to be for a true short story of 3000+ words for YA readers? Anytime I go over a couple of thousand words, my plots either expand dramatically or peter out.

Deb: Hmmmm.....good question. I'd say incredibly tight! You need all the elements of story--beginning, middle, ending, great characterization, brilliant dialogue, but all in a short form. You won't have much room for a subplot. I'm not a short story writer, though I did just write one recently. It was 3,400 words, for a ya audience. It had all the elements of story, including a twist at the end, a dark moment, character growth (oh my, am I modest or what?)I do think short stories are difficult--especially for me--and need to be tightly written.

Claudette: If you have several plotlines that you want to weave into a long, intricate novel, is it best to outline each plotline for it's MC when creating the overall outline or create and weave them as you go along? I ask this from an organizational and revision standpoint.

Deb: Good question, Clauds. I think it may depend a bit on whether you are a pantser or outliner. I'm a little of both, but my process varies from project to project. How organized are you? Do you make an outline and pretty much stick to it? Do you like revising? (I love revising!)

Deb: I would, personally, find it very difficult to outline each plotline for each main character. I sometimes write an outline for the entire book, with interweaving plot lines, but I don't get scene-by-scene specific. I know other writers are different, and DO go scene-by-scene. To me, that feels too mechanical.

Deb: I tend to start writing, then outline when I get stuck, then write some more, outline some more--kind of like driving down a country road at night with headlights. I can only see a certain distance ahead. But, that just might be me! You need to find what works best for you.

Deb: While writing, I don't strictly follow an outline. I know, basically, what the major point of my story is and where we have to end up. But I do let the characters interrupt with their ideas.

Deb: In my wip, the main character has a brother. I didn't realize, until now, that he had a tragic story all on his own (a subplot, actually.) It's sad, and it foreshadows something which will happen to my main character.

Deb: When writing, I think in scenes. So, let's say I've had a quiet scene between my mc and her brother. Kind of a bonding moment, when she learns about his tragedy. So, now I need a LOUD scene, one with more conflict, more action, just to balance things out. Does that make any sense? I tend to weave as I go, even though my outline tells me where I need to end up.

Deb: Did that help, or am I babbling? I think my point is this: there is no one right way to write. You will discover what works for you, and that process might even change from book to book.

Claudette: One of the things that I worry with is having a plot that expands as I write. (I'm talking fantasy here) I'll begin with my characters having a beautifully compact timeline, everybody's business has been decided, plot has been worked out to the nth degree (or at least I think it has), and then wham! In the middle of a perfectly straightforward scene a new character pops in and disrupts the action by introducing an even more intriguing plot twist that I didn't see coming. Is this behavior on the part of the hindbrain normal for writer's doing novels or am I just disorganized once I start writing?

Deb: Claudette, I think this happens all the time to writers! You think you are in total control, and then a character does something you don't expect or a new character arrives. Enjoy these wonderful intuitive moments! I think this is perfectly normal, and something most writers say happens to them all the time. Did you ever read the book by Linda Sue Park--was it Mulberry Street or something like that? The main character starts talking to the author--arguing even--and at one point refuses to speak. It was a risky move on her part to write it like this, but totally funny. So, sure, have an outline, work out your plot, but let those characters throw curve balls. They may be trying to tell you something!

ColoradoKate: I hope I'm not too late, Deb; if I am, maybe Jan will see this and answer it! I'm toying with an idea for an episodic early-MG or late-Chapter book, where each chapter is its own story, with a complete plot arc and resolution and all that, but there's a common thread from chapter to chapter and the character grows throughout the book, too. I know this is a popular style for younger chapter books--I'm thinking of Lois Lowry's first Gooney Bird Greene, in which Gooney Bird is a 2nd grader--but my MC needs to be at least 10, because of the language and the voice I'm using (very big-wordy). Do you think I'd be writing myself into a corner, in terms of ending up with something that wasn't at all marketable? Does a novel for 4th or 5th graders have to have the most important plot arc be one that encompasses the whole book? Is what I'm asking making any sense at all? (I'm thinking perhaps not; please feel free to agree and just move on... )

Deb: Kate, your question makes perfect sense. I'm hoping Jan will jump in, though, since early mg or late-chapter books aren't my area of expertise. I did have one middle grade published (The Same Difference, about a girl with Asperger's) but it was written in the upper range for mg.

Jan: I've actually been trying to remember if I've seen any "older kid" books with the type of structure you mention. Probably the "oldest" I've ever seen is INDIAN SHOES by Cynthia Leitich Smith -- the character is really pretty young but the voice always seemed a smidge older than usual for that style of book. But, that doesn't mean that what you have in mind won't work. It means that it's not going to be what publishers are used to getting. Honestly, though, in the books that have been coming from publishers for review, I've seen A LOT of books lately that don't fit established forms. The key is whether it grabs someone's attention enough to make them believe it's worth going around what's expected.

Deb: Well, everyone, it's been a blast spending time with you and talking about plot.So long and thanks for all the fish! (I love that line, though I didn't like Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.)

sharonda: Thank you Deb for all your time! I couldn't pop a question but I will take in consideration all the helpful comments you have posted here! Thanks again! It's appreciated!

Jan: Thanks for sharing your brilliance with us for these three days. It's been super.

chippy: I couldn't agree more Jan.