Instititute of Children's Literature

Rx for Writers

Transcripts

"Educational Writing: How to Get a Go-Ahead" with Dee Stuart.

Thursday, August 2, 2001

Moderator is Kristi Holl, author of 24 books for children, plus 150 articles, and the web editor for this site.

Dee is Dee Stuart, a full-time writer from Texas who has published historical and mystery novels for adults and both fiction and nonfiction for children. Her educational writing includes two books to be released in October: MOTORCYCLES from Enslow and MISSION SABOTAGE from Perfection Learning.

Names color coded in blue are viewers who asked questions.

Interviews are held on Thursday nights: 9-11 p.m. Atlantic/Canada, 8-10 p.m. Eastern, 7-9 Central, 6-8 Mountain, and 5-7 Pacific

Moderator: Hello, everyone! Welcome to tonight's Scheduled Event with Dee Stuart who will be talking about "Educational Writing: How to Get a Go-Ahead." Sometimes it can seem like a long uphill battle to get from a professional query to getting that "go-ahead" on a project from an editor. Dee Stuart's educational writing includes new books: MOTORCYCLES from Enslow and MISSION SABOTAGE from Perfection Learning. Welcome, Dee!

Dee: Thanks, and hello there.

Moderator: Dee, can you first give us a bit of your publishing history? How did you get started writing?

Dee: I started writing when I went to school with my children. I wrote an article about it for The Grade Teacher, who published it.

Moderator: You once said that writing "was uphill all the way" after the first sale. Why?

Dee: I was lucky enough to sell my first effort, so I thought that because I sold my first effort, all you had to do was sit down and write something. Wrong. Rejections followed.

SaraJ: How many rejections?

Dee: Oh, I've no idea. Some people save them. I only saved the ones that were instructive.

Moderator: Was educational writing your first love?

Dee: Research was really my first love. After I found out all these wonderful things, I wanted to share them with someone.

SaraJ: Can you give us a definition of educational publishing? Isn't all published nonfiction educational?

Dee: Yes, in a sense, but publishers speak of educational meaning geared to schools and libraries.

shanniebee: Were editors pretty good at instructive rejections, or doesn't that happen very often?

Dee: Once they're interested in a ms. they are endlessly helpful. Or sometimes they will say things like, "We're changing our focus, so there isn't a place in our program for this ms."

Moderator: How did you specifically come to write for the educational market?

Dee: I became intrigued with the subject of armadillos. I searched the library for books about animals and saw books I liked published by Carolrhoda Books, so I queried them about writing an armadillo book.

Moderator: After writing for adults, you said that "children's books presented much more of a challenge." How so?

Dee: Children's books are often shorter so every word must count and you don't have the space to waffle around. Further, children are very perceptive readers, so you must be absolutely accurate in all that you write.

shanniebee: Do you think research is something you learn to like or is it just something you either like or not?

Dee: I've always loved research; it's like being a detective solving mysteries. A writer may learn to like it, but if not, don't do it.

LeesiD: Everyone makes writing seem so easy. I can't believe some of the things I've seen published. I say "I can do that," but sometimes what I may think is great may not be true. Is writing "in the eye of the beholder--or reader"?

Dee: Writing is in the eye of the editor. What one editor thinks is poison (WHERE THE WILD THINGS ARE) another editor will love. You have to have confidence in your own work.

iwrite: Do biographies or articles on famous personalities fall into the 'educational writing' bracket?

Dee: Yes, although there is an open market for them in the trade, that is, books sold in bookstores.

Moderator: How did you decide what to write about?

Dee: Usually a subject grabs hold of me and won't let go until I write about it.

Moderator: What length books do you write?

Dee: I like to write nonfiction for the "middle age" reader from 5,000 to 7,000 words. Books of fiction usually run about 45,000 words.

ocam2: Are you ever asked to do lesson plans?

Dee: No. I did those when I was teaching. Usually the publisher takes care of the lesson plans.

baking: Fiction can also be considered "educational" too, right?

Dee: Yes, one of my most recent "educational" books is a fictionalized version of an event that took place during WWII.

Moderator: Who can write for the educational market?

Dee: Any writer who is interested in writing for that market.

Moderator: So there are no qualifications you must meet to write for this market?

Dee: Well, of course you must be knowledgeable about your subject and convince the editor that you know whereof you speak. I had interviewed an owner or two about bats, done a lot of research, etc.

Moderator: Should an educational writer be a teacher in order to write for this market? Does a teaching degree in your credentials help you get sales?

Dee: No, you don't need to be a teacher or have a degree. I don't think a teaching degree helped me get sales. It was more my previous writing credits that helped.

iwrite: Does the subject have to be something that has not been written about before? Because every time I think I have a terrific idea I find that it has been written about.

Dee: Oh, yes, that's true, but perhaps you can take a different slant. For instance, my bat book is about bats in the U.S. Others have written about all kinds of bats. Maybe more than one publisher wants a book about a subject another publisher has covered.

ValerieG: Is it ever okay to write a publisher asking if there are any book topics that they need covered?

Dee: I think that's the wrong approach. Editors are more impressed if you've read the publisher's books and then say you have an idea for a book that you think would fit into their publishing program. They like you to KNOW WHAT THEY WANT.

Moderator: When analyzing books from the library, what exactly were you looking for? How did you know when you "matched" what a publisher was looking for?

Dee: I studied books they had published in the library and more important, I studied their catalog which I either found on the net, or sent for, or borrowed from my friendly librarian.

Moderator: Do you always choose topics of interest to you--such as armadillos and bats--or were the topics assigned to you?

Dee: I always choose topics of interest to me, but if an editor is doing a series, s/he will often give you a choice. For example, with the WWII book the editor asked me to submit several ideas for a WWII book, then she chose one of them.

Moderator: Who exactly publishes educational materials?

Dee: Many publishers: Enslow, Perfection Learning, Lerner, Carolrhoda, Pelican, Steck-Vaughn and many more.

baking: In the Children's Writers Market are "educational markets" tagged as such?

Dee: No, I don't think so. Look in publishers' catalogs to see whether there is an order blank in the catalog for schools to order the books. Educational publishers have these in their catalogs. They list them in sets with prices.

iwrite: Is it better idea to send out queries and tailor one's writing to the needs of the publisher or to first write your article (or book) and then find a publisher who wants it?

Dee: I tailor my query to the needs of the publisher.

Moderator: What is the market for educational materials (types of manuscripts, that is)?

Dee: They publish books on sports and sports figures; on super achievers in every field imaginable; on animals; on places, both foreign countries and the United States; famous landmarks; history, every topic you can imagine.

Moderator: What about other types, like teacher's guides and test samples, etc.?

Dee: I'm sure there is a market for guides and tests, but I've never looked into that area of writing.

MBVoelker: Are "how-to" books and pet care books part of this market?

Dee: Oh, absolutely. How to take care of your cat, dog, bird, fish, etc.

shanniebee: Don't you think being experienced with a subject helps also? I have 3 boys and manners were a real problem. So I'm trying to write a humorous article about it to appeal to boys. Even if I'm not Miss Manners, I feel I can relate!

Dee: Yes, being experienced with a subject is a big plus.

Moderator: How can I find educational publishers if they're not listed separately in market guides?

Dee: Ask your local librarian or go to a school and ask teachers and the school librarian who the educational publishers are.

Moderator: How do I know what subjects publishers are looking for?

Dee: You can look in the Writer's Market in the library or, if you look in a catalog and see that they publish books about sea creatures and you know about sea creatures they haven't covered, you can suggest that they might want a book about your creature.

Granny Janny: Suppose you pick your publisher first and she wants, say the life cycle of the tsetse fly, and you know nothing about the tsetse fly. What would you do next?

Dee: First I'd exhaust the encyclopedia, then the Internet. From those sources I'd find names of researchers on the topic or I'd find names of books on the topic until I came up with an expert on the subject and then I'd write to him and ask for the most recent information. When I wrote about armadillos, I found the name of a well-known researcher in Florida who agreed to "vet" my ms. and also contributed some new and exciting info on using armadillos to research leprosy. Dig, dig, dig!

SaraJ: So you would do the book on the tsetse fly, even if you were just not interested in the subject?

Dee: No, I myself would not write about anything I wasn't truly interested in because a writer's lack of enthusiasm for a subject creeps into the writing and because writing a book requires stamina and if you're not enthusiastic, your stamina may run dry and you may not even finish the book.

ocam2: By "vet" did you mean the researcher read your ms. for accuracy?

Dee: Yes, I sure did.

Moderator: Must you stick to subjects that the publisher is already doing, like a series, or can you propose other topics?

Dee: You are certainly welcome to suggest a stand-alone title, or you may suggest 5 or 6 ideas for a series, such as famous baseball stadiums, or whatever series you think would appeal to readers.

Moderator: Many areas in the educational market change rapidly like current events. Is there a need for materials for the classroom to update children on current events? Or is it taken care of with computers and televisions in the classroom?

Dee: Unless the "current events" are going to shape our lives or history in years to come, I wouldn't think there would be a need.

Moderator: Are there any "taboo" subjects I should avoid with educational publishers? Since most of their material goes into schools, is there a certain "slant" the writing needs to take--or avoid?

Dee: Much depends on the type of material you're writing. If it's historical for example, you'd have to present the material either in a totally impartial way or let your POV be known. If you're a "Yankee" writing about the Civil War you write from a Northerner's POV. If you're a "Rebel" writing about the "War of Northern Aggression" the reader needs to know it's from that POV. Whatever you write, I'd take a positive approach.

Moderator: How open are publishers to new series?

Dee: They are always looking for a new and different series.

Moderator: What are my chances of writing for an existing series?

Dee: If you study series being published, look to see if they are all written by the same author, and if so, look for one written by different authors, where your chances are better. However, some appear to be written by the same author, but are not. I simply called a publisher and asked who was writing this series. Turned out they were all written by one man, BUT he had passed away and so they were looking for new authors to write the series.

Moderator: How can you actually "land a job" writing for an existing series where many authors write the books? What's the procedure?

Dee: First you choose the topic you want to write about. Send the editor a query letter along with a short synopsis and the first chapter. Say you've read the other books in the series and you think readers would enjoy this topic as well.

ValerieG: How many mss. a year should you submit to an editor, approximately, before that editor would start to feel comfortable with you, get to know your work, and give your work serious consideration?

Dee: I'm a very slow writer so seldom submit more than one a year to a publisher. Besides, a second book might not fit the first publisher's list at all, so I'd send it elsewhere.

Moderator: How are payments usually made? (Flat fee or royalty?)

Dee: Depends entirely on the publisher. Some pay flat fee, no royalty ever. Others pay a small advance, or a middle-sized one, and pay royalties as well.

ocam2: How did you get started? Did you write a query or a proposal and get an assignment for instance?

Dee: I first began writing articles and after studying the magazines, sent them in cold. I've since learned that's most unprofessional; you should query first. With the first book, I broke another rule. Just called the editor and said, "How would you like a book about armadillos?" He said, "Well, we don't have a book about armadillos." Which I well knew because I'd studied their list. He suggested I read a few of their books. I'd read nine of them. And he suggested I send the first chapter and an outline, which I did.

reluct: What do you do with editors that refuse (or don't answer) your queries and inquiries? What approach would you take next?

Dee: There are several ways to handle that. One is to wait 3 months and if you receive no reply, consider they aren't interested and send the query elsewhere. Or, you can send out multiple queries--the query police won't get you for that.

ValerieG: Why should you only submit one ms. a year to an editor? Is it so they won't get sick of seeing your work product, or is it to show that you're doing careful research?

Dee: For one thing, I don't want them to be able to choose between 2 mss. And, what I think would suit one editor, wouldn't work for another editor. For instance, Enslow wanted my motorcycle book, but I doubt Perfection Learning has a place for it on their list.

ocam2: If you don't know the editor's name, how do you find it?

Dee: I almost always called the publisher and ask the operator for the name of the acquiring editor. More often than not, they simply switch me to the children's editorial department and I ask whoever answers the phone and sometimes I say, "Who edits the biographies?" (Or whatever my subject matter is.) Always ask them to spell the name. Even if it's Smith.

Moderator: What are the benefits of writing for the educational market?

Dee: One benefit is that you can rest assured you will have many readers and your books wear out from heavy use in schools and libraries and so they have to reorder. So your books stay in print for a much longer time than they do with the trade publishers who are always conscious of the bottom line. If there aren't continuous sales, off with their heads.

Moderator: That is so true!!! What are the drawbacks of writing for the educational market?

Dee: The biggest drawback is that your book is seldom reviewed by the biggies: New York Times, Horn Book, School Library Journal, etc.

Moderator: Are there any resources (books, web sites) you would recommend for those interested in the educational market?

Dee: There are countless web sites for writers of juvenile fiction. Type "writing for children" in a search engine and you should find them. I don't know of any books specifically for writing for educational publishers.

Moderator: What are hi-lo books? Can you give some examples of this?

Dee: Hi-lo books are books with a high interest level for readers who are not reading up to grade level. Perfection Learning publishes a number of series of hi-lo books. And the catalogs list them as such.

Moderator: What skills are needed to write hi-lo educational books?

Dee: You need to know the grade level of the words you're using. I use a book which lists vocabularies for each grade level called EDL Core Vocabulary published by Steck-Vaughn. I also use the Flesch-Kincaid scale found under Tools on my AOL toolbar under grammar and language.

Moderator: Are you given specific vocabulary lists that you must use for hi-lo books?

Dee: No, I never have received such a list.

Moderator: Do hi-lo books appear as individual titles or in a series? Do you have any examples of either or both? What are some popular hi-lo topics?

Dee: They have entire series of hi-lo books. Sports, animal, adventure, famous people, historical events.

Moderator: Educational publishers also want leveled readers. What are they?

Dee: They are books for readers who read at grade level with a few words that provide a stretch, that is, with a few words above their reading level.

Moderator: Who comes up with topics for leveled readers?

Dee: Both the publisher and (now and then) writers suggest topics, particularly writers who have been working with one publisher for some time.

Moderator: How do I know what grade level my writing is suited for?

Dee: Use the Flesch-Kincaid test on your computer. There is another system, very complicated, in which you figure out the number of words per sentence and other parameters which I've never been able to use because I'm very poor at math.

Moderator: In market books, many publishers are listed who want sports books. How do you know which publisher wants your ms.?

Dee: Good question. The secret is that sports books are broken down into categories. One publisher will want only the life story of a sports figure; another will want stories only of those who have overcome great odds; another will want only stories that recount exciting moments during games or competitions. You have to study the type book they need. Then write your own.

Moderator: My sister is a wonderful artist. Is it okay for me to submit samples of her art work to illustrate my book?

Dee: No, not really. Publishers have a "stable" of artists and they choose one who they think will do the most for your book. I've known editors who liked a text, but returned it because they didn't want to use the pictures the writer sent with the ms. Sometimes an artist can "make" a new writer's book succeed. A friend of mine submitted a first book. Aliki illustrated it and the book sold like hamburgers. My friend's brother is a commercial artist; he could have illustrated the book. But Aliki made it a bestseller.

Moderator: Do educational publishers tend to keep their books in print longer than trade publishers?

Dee: Yes, because they know there will be reorders.

Moderator: I'm sorry to have to step in here, but we're out of time tonight. Dee, thank you for coming tonight. Many of us are curious people who love to do research, and this has given us more ideas and outlets for our writing. We appreciate your taking the time to share with us!

Dee: It's been my pleasure. Thank you.

Moderator: Do come back in two weeks on August l6 when scientist and children's writer Fred Bortz will here to discuss "Finding Your Niche in Science Writing for Young Readers." Children and writers are both naturally inquisitive, and no area of nonfiction is richer in questions and possibilities than science. Ph.D. physicist Fred Bortz says that two keys to his success in science writing are his abilities (1) to follow his curiosity and his questions in productive directions and (2) to share the stories he discovers along the way. If you love following your questions, he says, you can find your niche in the opportunity-filled field of writing science for children and teens. For an extensive look at Dr. Fred's published work, explore his fascinating web site at www.fredbortz.com. And now, good night, everyone!

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