Instititute of Children's Literature

Rx for Writers

Transcripts

"Writing the Short Story" with Dori Butler

Thursday, December 20, 2001

Moderator is Kristi Holl, author of 24 books and 150+ articles, and web editor for this site.

Dori is Dori Butler, author of 12 books for children and many short stories to top magazines such as Cricket, Highlights for Children, Children's Digest, Child Life and various Sunday School publications. She also writes short stories for Harcourt Educational Measurement and for www.storydog.com.

Names color coded in blue are viewers who had questions.

Interviews are held on Thursday nights: 9-11 p.m. Atlantic/Canada, 8-10 p.m. Eastern, 7-9 Central, 6-8 Mountain, and 5-7 Pacific

Moderator: Good evening, everyone! I'm Kristi Holl, your moderator tonight and the web editor for this site. Tonight we're here with Dori Butler to discuss "Writing the Short Story." New writers are often advised to begin their careers by writing short stories. That's good advice, but writing a short story is a special genre or art form all its own. Tonight we'll be talking about the nuts and bolts of writing short stories--and selling them. We're glad you could be here tonight, Dori!

Dori: Hi, everyone.

Moderator: First, Dori, have you published a lot of short stories?

Dori: I've published somewhere between 50 and 75 short stories. Some in magazines like Cricket, Highlights for Children, The Children's Better Health Institute publications and various Sunday School publications. I also write short stories for one of Harcourt's educational divisions and for www.storydog.com.

Moderator: Where do you get the ideas for your short stories?

Dori: I really don't know. I'll read something or somebody will tell me something that sparks an idea. For instance, a few years ago I had a neighbor who did daycare in her home. She was telling me about when she drove her 15-year-old daughter to school and saw a "perfectly good Fisher Price playset" in somebody else's garbage can. She was still in pajamas (she drove her daughter to school in her pajamas), so she asked her daughter to go and get it. She didn't understand why her daughter wouldn't want to do this. I swear this is a true story! And it was too good to just let it slip away. So I turned it into a short story about a boy whose mother keeps embarrassing him.

Moderator: Interesting! What do you consider the elements of a good short story?

Dori: Every fiction story (novel length or short story) needs believable characters, a well developed plot, setting, theme, etc. But in a short story you have much less room to do all that than you have when you're writing a novel. A short story generally has few scenes, takes place within a short period of time, contains fewer characters, probably doesn't have flashbacks. I think the average children's story is probably somewhere between 500-1,500 words long.

Moderator: What are the approximate word lengths needed for short stories for preschoolers, for early elementary readers, middle school readers, and for young adults?

Dori: That depends entirely on the publication you're aiming for. Highlights publishes stories for ages 2-12. They don't take anything longer than 900 words, even for 12-year-olds. Pockets is aimed at ages 6-12 and they'll take stories that are 1,500 words long. Some of the Sunday School publications take 1,500 word stories for teenagers. Cicada takes stories up to 5,000 words. So I can't really generalize.

SaraJ: How do you know which subjects are appropriate for which age groups? Is there a reference list or anything?

Dori: Well, that would depend on the magazine. For instance, you can't write about war or violence of any kind for Highlights. Other magazines like "edgier" topics. If you study back issues of a certain magazine you'll generally get a pretty good feel for what kinds of stories they like. I have a degree in child psychology and that helps with my writing quite a bit and deciding what subjects kids of different ages care about. I'd recommend a book on this subject called Yardsticks -- I don't remember the author. It takes you through different developmental stages and talks about different concerns kids have at different ages. It's a great book (for parents and writers both)!

Moderator: How do you develop characters, establish a setting and tell a good story in 900 words or less?

Dori: That isn't always easy, is it? Generally, I try and break the story down to its bare bones. I've got a character who has a problem. I figure out what attempts the character is going to make to solve the problem, and I figure out the solution. I try not to deviate from that plan. I try not to embellish or expand. My advice is: keep it simple and stick to the bare bones of the story.

Moderator: Dori, when they say 900 words, you've usually got a little leeway, don't you? You can go a little over the word count, can't you?

Dori: Well, not much really. Magazine editors are usually working with a set number of pages. They need stories that will fit their layout. So when they say 900 words, they usually mean 900 words. It's not that they think a story that's 1,000 words isn't as good as a story that's only 900 words -- it just probably won't fit their format.

pocahontas: Are most magazines open to 2-part story installments or do they prefer one story within their word limits?

Dori: I think most prefer one story that fits their word limits. There are some Sunday School publications that occasionally publish 2-part stories, but I think most of those are actually written in-house.

SaraJ: Do newspapers do installments? Like kid pages?

Dori: Some do. I think most are syndicated, though. It never hurts to try. One good way to break into your local newspaper is to first write book reviews.

Moderator: How do I know where to start cutting from a short story that's too long?

Dori: Well, once again I usually go back to the bare bones of the story. If it's not part of the bare bones, I cut it. Sometimes that's painful. Sometimes that piece that I have to cut is funny or it gives deeper insight into one of the characters. Sometimes I feel like I'm cutting the best part of the whole story. But ultimately, if taking it out doesn't change the plot or theme of the story, it probably needs to go. Then I also try and tighten up sentences and paragraphs. That's usually not so difficult. Why use 15 words if I can get the point across in 8? I also look for "ly" words. "Ly" words usually aren't necessary. Neither are words like "just" and "very." (Words like "just" and "very" just don't add very much to a story.)

Smile: About what percentage of your writing do you sell? Do you still get rejection slips?

Dori: Oh, yes! I do pretty well with my short stories. I sell most of them. Not always to the first place I send them, but most of them sell eventually. If only I did as well with my novels!

tpriley: Dori, can you give us some advice on how moralistic a story can be? I've written several where the kid "gets away with it." Are there markets for this type of piece?

Dori: When I first started out, I remember having an argument with my (then) agent about this very subject. I had a story where the kids did something they shouldn't have done and then got punished. She said I needed to work on that punishment angle some. I didn't agree with her at first. Realistically, those kids would've gotten in trouble for what they did! And she wasn't disputing that. Her point was the punishment at the end made the story not as fun to the kids. She was absolutely right. And I never did find a way to fix that story. So it never sold. It is okay to let kids get away with it to some extent. You've got to keep the story fun. You've got to keep it interesting to kids. But there is a limit. Sometimes there are consequences and you have to show those consequences in the story. But you can't end there. There's got to be something more, something to keep the kids with you. If kids sense a lesson coming, they're going to stop reading.

Smile: Do you stick with established markets or do you try new ones?

Dori: I like to try new ones, too. It's always good to make new friends, right?

pocahontas: What do you do when you run out of magazines that suit your story?

Dori: Then I retire it. I had quite a few stories I'd retired, but then when I started writing for Harcourt's educational division, I was able to sell many of them. So don't give up even if you think you've exhausted all possibilities. New markets pop up all the time. And new opportunities, too.

Moderator: Do you outline your stories before you start writing?

Dori: Not really. I've got that "bare bones" structure of the story in my head. I rarely do any other kind of outlining. But that's just me. Other writers find it helps them focus if they outline. Whatever works for you. There are no rules when it comes to outlining.

Moderator: Do you do detailed character sketches before you write your short stories, since so little of the description can be used due to the short length?

Dori: No. When I write a novel I do pretty detailed sketches, but not for a short story. But again, that's just me. Others might find it helpful.

Moderator: Do you include much setting description? You have to have some, but how do you decide what is necessary?

Dori: It depends on the story. A science fiction story or a historical fiction story would probably require more setting than a contemporary school story. But as far as deciding how much is necessary...I guess a good rule of thumb would be no more and no less than what's necessary to orient the reader in the particular world of your story.

Moderator: Can you give any approximate percentages for these story elements (like 50% dialogue, l0% description, 40% narration)?

Dori: I would find it difficult to break down a story like that. I don't think there are any hard and fast rules. Again, it depends on the story. Some require more dialogue. Some require more narration. I published a short story once that was entirely narration. It didn't contain a single line of dialogue. And it sold on the first try. That same publication has since bought other stories that are almost all dialogue. So I don't think you could even say it's a matter of editorial choice. I think it depends on the story.

SaraJ: My instructor once said I didn't have a good balance between action and dialogue. What would be a good balance for an average middle grade story?

Dori: Without seeing the story it's hard to say for sure, but I can take a guess. Sometimes if a story is real heavy on action it gets exhausting. You need to break it up. On the other hand, if your characters are just talking but not doing anything, that gets dull, too. So you have to find a happy medium there. Keep your characters talking, but keep them moving, too. A nice balance of the two.

Moderator: Since word count is so strict, how can you make your words really count?

Dori: Well, to start with, look at your adverbs. Chances are you can get rid of your adverbs by making your verbs stronger. For example, instead of "ran quickly," you might say "sped." Or instead of "said loudly," how about "yelled"? Watch your dialogue tag lines, too. That's another place where it's easy to get wordy. Generally, "said" is all you need. Any more than that calls attention to the tag line. You want your readers' attention on the dialogue, not on the tag line. You should also watch out for forms of "to be." For instance, instead of "Fluffy's ears WERE twitchING," how about "Fluffy's ears twitched"?

Moderator: How do you slant a particular story toward a certain age group? Isn't a children's story a children's story?

Dori: Not really. You have to take into account different age groups, different interests of different age groups (like we talked about a little while ago). For once thing, most kids don't like to read stories about kids who are younger than they are. They want to read about kids who are a little older. So generally a story aimed at an 8-year-old will feature a 12-year-old protagonist. Also, the older your target audience is, the more sophisticated your story can be. Stories for preschoolers need to be really simple. They need to have lots of action, but probably just one idea. And they probably wouldn't be more than a couple hundred words long. Stories for older readers can have a little more going on.

SaraJ: In order to seem "contemporary," do our stories for older readers have to include heavy issues?

Dori: Not at all. In fact, magazine editors (especially those who are editing YA stuff) have told me they need lighter stuff, more humor.

Moderator: Can you ever include nonfiction sidebars with a short story? Like maybe 250 words on Christmas traditions around the world with a fiction story about a child's Christmas in Poland?

Dori: Sure. I've done that. Perhaps a historical fiction story about a family whose home is a stop on the underground railroad could include a sidebar on the underground railroad. Not all stories lend themselves to this kind of thing. The sidebar should be a natural extension. If you've written a story and you realize you've dealt with a subject that young readers might want to know more about, that's when a sidebar would come in handy.

pocahontas: How do you include a sidebar in a manuscript you are submitting?

Dori: It would be like two separate pieces. In other words, you'd type up your story the way you normally would and paper clip those pages together. Then you'd paper clip your sidebar pages together, too. You'd type SIDEBAR at the top, so the editor would know what it was. And then you'd just type it in regular manuscript format.

Kayte: When do you include sidebars with an article? I had an allergy story held by Pockets. I offered to add a sidebar---should I have just written it and included it with the piece?

Dori: Hi, Kay! I think that would be a perfect short story to include a sidebar.

Moderator: Do you think learning how to write a good short story will help a person learn to write a novel? Or are the two extremely different forms?

Dori: They are indeed different forms, but I do think you can learn a lot about writing a novel from writing a short story. You learn the elements of good storytelling. You learn how to write tight and find the right word. Just because you have more room to write in a novel is no excuse for getting sloppy.

Moderator: What's the difference between a short story and a picture book?

Dori: Well, a picture book is much more visual than a short story. I read somewhere that it's kind of like a movie in that it unfolds in scenes. That's a good way of looking at it. Each scene must be different enough to allow for illustration possibilities. There are usually just a couple of illustrations with a short story, but a picture book has illustrations on every page. Short stories can be a little more cerebral. Things can be going on inside the character's head. Picture books are also A LOT more expensive to produce than magazine stories, so I think they have to be really unique in order to get noticed. I think it's much harder to sell a picture book than it is to sell a short story.

Moderator: How do I know whether it's a short story idea, a picture book idea or a novel length idea?

Dori: That's a good question. And sometimes you don't know until you get into it. Sometimes a short story can develop into a novel. I have a couple of published short stories that I would like to come back to one day and explore further (in a novel). Sometimes it's hard to draw that line, though. As we talked about a little earlier, you have to think about the illustration possibilities. Is your idea very visual? Sometimes that's hard to tell. I was at a conference once where an editor from Highlights/Boyds Mills Press read stories and we were supposed to guess whether they were picture books or short stories. This was hard! There was one story in particular that seemed very visual to me. But the editor said it worked better as a short story. I suspect it seemed visual because it evoked lots of images in my mind when I heard it being read. But were they large, illustratable scenes or were they just images? I imagine that's where the difference lies. An image isn't necessarily a scene.

Moderator: Is it easier to get a short story published than a picture book or novel? If so, why?

Dori: I think it's much easier to get a short story published than a picture book. For one thing, there are more openings. Magazines need material every month. Publishers only publish books a couple times a year. And since it's so expensive to produce a picture book, it really needs to stand out.

Smile: Do you set aside regular hours for writing?

Dori: I like to do that, but because of my family's schedule, I'm not always able to set hours. I do write every day, though.

wendymh: Is it a good idea to show consequences to behavior rather than try to put any kind of message in a story?

Dori: I think so. Behavior has consequences. Let the child take away the message from seeing the consequences. That way you don't have to hit them over the head with a lesson. Just don't be preachy about it.

tpriley: This may be a little off the short story track, but do you know of any good writing books that discuss story arc and rising tension in a novel-length work?

Dori: Oh, that's a good question. I was looking at that myself just a few weeks ago. Let me turn around and check my bookshelves. I've got several. Okay...The Marshall Plan for Novel Writing by Evan Marshall (there's a book and a workbook here; both have a nice description.) There's Christopher Vogler's The Writer's Journey; Robert Kernan's Building Better Plots; Albert Zuckerman's Writing the Blockbuster Novel. And this is a new one: Donald Maass' Writing the Breakout Novel. You'll notice none of these are specifically on writing for CHILDREN, but good writing is good writing, no matter what age you're writing for.

Moderator: Excellent books here! Thank you, Dori!

Smile: I've been writing (and selling) for twenty-nine years, but I don't have an agent. How can I tell if I need one, and where do I find one?

Dori: I think whether or not you need one is a question only you can answer. I had one for a while, but then I decided I was probably better off on my own because I want to understand everything in my contract, I want to know where my stories are, etc. So my agent and I parted on good terms with the understanding I would ask her to help me negotiate contracts for a fee. That worked real well until she gave up agenting. I was on my own for a while and have been okay with that. I've made contacts with editors on my own and don't necessarily need that agent to get me in the door. On the other hand, so many houses are closing their doors to unagented authors, so I go back and forth on trying to get one again. You also asked where to find one... Writer's Digest puts out a book on agents. SCBWI also has a booklet of agents you can get for an SASE if you're a member (which I would recommend if you're not).

Moderator: Suppose I liked to write lots of stories about the same characters. Is it possible to sell a series of stories to a magazine?

Dori: Generally not. Very few magazines publish a series of stories. Those that do generally do them "in-house."

Moderator: How do you know which magazine to send a certain story to? Is marketing short stories different from marketing articles or books?

Dori: You should always send for guidelines, just like you would from a book publisher. It's a good idea to look at 10-12 back issues, too. That'll give you a good feel for the type of stories a certain publication prefers. You may think fiction is fiction, but if you read lots of back issues from one publication and then switch to another, you'll see some differences in types of stories, viewpoint, tone, length, etc. Many magazine publishers also have theme lists that you can request. That way you know what subjects they're looking for.

Moderator: Do you usually hear from magazine editors faster than book editors?

Dori: That's been my experience. It's rare that I hear from a book publisher in under 6 months. And it's rare that I DON'T hear from a magazine editor in 6 months. 1-3 months seems to be about average for magazine editors -- at least in my experience.

Ducky: Did it take you a long time to get a fiction story accepted the first time?

Dori: I was incredibly lucky! The second submission I ever made got an editor's attention. She didn't buy that particular story, but she called me on the phone to tell me she liked my style and asked if I'd send her something else. She bought that next story. And after she left, the new editor at that magazine bought that first story that caught the original editor's attention.

Moderator: Doubly nice! How long does it take most magazines to publish a short story?

Dori: It depends on the publication and their needs. I've had some stories come out just a couple months after they've accepted the story. Generally those are the Sunday School publications. I've also waited 4+ years (I'm still waiting) from acceptance to publication. I know of somebody who waited 12 years to see her story in print. The magazine did eventually publish it. That's what's nice about magazines that do theme lists. If they buy your story, you know when they're going to publish it.

Ducky: Did the first editor explain why she wasn't buying the first story?

Dori: You know, I don't remember. I just remember talking over several story ideas with her and her picking one. I also made the mistake of sending in a 4,500 word story when the magazine only published 2,000 word stories. They published it, though! They really liked the subject (it was on drinking and driving).

pocahontas: When magazines say their response time varies, what does this mean? How long should I wait for a response?

Dori: I think 3 months is a good amount of time. Response time varies by how far behind they are in reading.

Moderator: What if they go out of business before your story is published? Do you get it back, even if you were paid for it?

Dori: Usually, yes. Unless you've sold all rights. If you've sold all rights, that story is gone. Though sometimes you can negotiate and ask that the rights be returned to you if they go out of business, even if they bought all rights. Some publications will return the story when they go out of business even if there isn't anything in your agreement. But they don't have to. All rights means the story is gone once you sign the contract or the check.

Moderator: Lots of magazines want to purchase all rights. Is it okay to sell all rights to a short story?

Dori: People have different opinions on this. I generally try to sell as few rights as I possibly can. Some magazines that say they purchase all rights will negotiate. Some will sell just "magazine rights" rather than "all rights" if you ask. But some won't. Then you have to ask yourself whether it's worth it to you to sell all rights to this particular story, to this particular publication. Is this a story you're likely to resell elsewhere?

Highlights is one publication that doesn't negotiate. They want all rights. Take it or leave it. I know several people who don't submit to them because of this. I do submit to them and here's why: 1) they pay very well, 2) they pay on acceptance, 3) they've got a large circulation, so my stories are getting read, 4) it's a good credit to list on my resume -- anyone who knows children's magazines knows Highlights, and 5) other publishers look through back issues of Highlights and purchase reprint rights. Now when you sell all rights in the first place, the publication doesn't have to pay you a cent when that happens. But I know for a fact that Highlights does pay the author. They maybe don't pay the author the whole amount. I really have no idea how much they keep. I figure I may not have sold it to that second publisher at all had the story not appeared in Highlights in the first place. That second publisher wouldn't have seen it.

I could take a stand and not submit to Highlights because of their policy on all rights, but I figure I'd only be hurting myself if I did that. I like being published in their magazine. The people are all very nice. And realistically, I'm not going to change their mind. There are other publications that buy all rights that I won't submit to, though. They don't have the name recognition that Highlights has and they don't pay as well. In that case, it's not worth it to me. I think you have to weigh the pros and cons yourself and decide whether it's worth it TO YOU to give up all rights TO THIS PARTICULAR STORY, AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME, TO THIS PARTICULAR PUBLICATION. (Sorry for the shouting.) Consider their reputation, how well they pay and how badly you want that credit on your resume.

SaraJ: Does "all rights" now include electronic rights and CD-ROM rights?

Dori: Yup. All rights means all rights. Some publications (mostly book publishers) even try to get away with saying "all rights, including those not yet invented."

Moderator: If you only sell first rights, when can you submit other rights to magazines, like reprint rights?

Dori: Generally not until the first magazine has actually published the piece. If you send your story out before it's been published by the first publication, it's possible the second publication would be ready to use it before the first publication. At that point, you'd be violating the agreement you have with the first publication. And probably hurting your relationship with them.

Moderator: Please explain the difference between simultaneous submissions (to magazines that buy simultaneous rights) and multiple submissions.

Dori: A multiple submission is when you send the same manuscript out to several publishers at the same time. Generally you do this to save time. You're not really expecting several magazines to publish the story at the same time. But sometimes that does happen. Sometimes two non-competing markets will publish a story at the same time. What I mean by "non-competing markets" is like the Baptist Sunday School take-home paper isn't read by the Methodists. A Catholic publication doesn't care if the story they published also appeared in the Mormon publication. They're not read by the same audience.

A different kind of "simultaneous rights" situation came into play for me once. One of the Children's Better Health Institute publications was holding my story for "possible publication." They'd been holding it for 6 months already. Then I saw another magazine's theme list and I thought my story fit their theme. I knew if I wanted to have a chance at selling that story to that manuscript, that was the time to do it. The CBHI publication only said "possible publication;" they hadn't made me any promises. So I sent the story to the second magazine. Apparently they thought it fit their theme, too. They bought it. So I immediately called CBHI to withdraw my story from their consideration, but they wouldn't let me. They not only had scheduled it for publication (without telling me), but had already commissioned the art. They wanted to publish it, and they wanted to publish it the same month as the other publication. Fortunately, both editors were very kind. They weren't competing markets, which probably made the difference. And each was willing to purchase "simultaneous rights" rather than "first rights" or "magazine rights."

Moderator: Where else can you publish short stories besides magazines?

Dori: Anthologies, textbooks, web sites. If you look around, you might find some really surprising markets. Just the other day I heard from someone on an e-mail list that she'd sold a short story to some publication that publishes short stories with containers of coffee. I think it was an online market.

SaraJ: What about the www.storydog.com online magazine mentioned in your write-up?

Dori: Actually, that's not a magazine. That's a web site. They publish 5-part stories. So the story starts on Sunday, then you get the next installment on Monday, then Tuesday etc. All the stories feature this dog named Vinny. The site has 6-7 writers. I would guess there are a number of sites that hire writers. If you see a site you like, it never hurts to send them a resume/sample of your writing and let them know you're available.

SaraJ: Not to be nosy, but do online markets pay you for your stories?

Dori: The only way to find out is to ask, right? Some sites don't pay. Probably a lot of sites don't pay. But Storydog pays very well. If you like mysteries, check out mysterynet.com. They pay pretty well, too. And you don't have to be one of their stable of writers to sell to them.

Moderator: Do you have any books you can recommend on writing short stories?

Dori: Writing Short Stories for Young People by George Edward Stanley is a good one. Stanley discusses the elements of different kinds of stories -- mysteries, adventure, fantasy, etc. He also talks about writing for different age groups, outlining, characterization, and preparing your manuscript. Many of the subjects we've discussed here tonight, actually. And that's the only one I know of that's specific to writing for children. Writer's Digest has a couple of short story books, too, but I don't happen to have either of them in my collection and I'm afraid I don't remember the titles.

Ducky: What is the best way to get sufficient conflict in a short story?

Dori: That's a good question, whether you're writing a short story or a novel. If you don't have conflict, you don't have a story. The Maass book I mentioned earlier (Writing the Breakout Novel) has quite a bit on conflict -- and that's applicable to short stories as well as novels. I think we could do an entire chat on conflict. But to give you one piece of advice: if you're trying to build conflict, try thinking about the stakes. Are they high enough? Can you raise them higher?

SaraJ: Can you plagiarize your own stories? I'd like to use a story I sold and expand it to a short novel. Is that okay?

Dori: That's an interesting question. Is it plagiarism if it was your own work? Absolutely it's okay to take a short story you've sold and expand it into a novel, even if you sold all rights to it. You'd be putting it in a different form, so it's a different story. Even if it is about the same character/subject as your short story.

Moderator: I'm sorry to have to interrupt here, but we're out of time tonight. Dori, thank you so much for coming tonight and sharing some specific tips on how we can write short stories and then get them published. This will help many of our viewers start the new year off right in their pursuit of publication.

Dori: Thank you for having me. It's been fun! (The time went quick!)

Moderator: Do come back in two weeks, on January 3, 2002 when we have rescheduled Carol Gorman's talk on "Successful School Visits." Carol is the author of popular books such as Dork in Diguise, The Miraculous Makeover of Lizard Flanagan, Lizard Flanagan Supermodel??, Jennifer-the-Jerk Is Missing, Chelsey and the Green-Haired Kid, and T.J. and the Pirate Who Wouldn't Go Home. Each year Carol visits dozens of schools across the United States. She has spoken successfully to all age levels -- in schools, libraries, and at a variety of conferences. How does an author get her foot in the door to make school visits? What do you do there? How much should you charge? What types of presentations appeal to early readers, middle graders, and high schoolers? For answers to these questions, and many more, join Carol January 3rd! And now, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

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