Mel is Mel Boring, moderator of this interview with Judy Cox and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site.

Interviews are held every other Thursday evening for two hours, beginning at 9 CANADA/
Atlantic Time, 8 Eastern Time, 7 Central Time, 6 Mountain Time, and 5 Pacific Time.  

J
"Computerese" you may need to understand this chat: LOL = Laugh Out Loud; BTW = By The Way
 

Mel: A good friend of ours, Wendy Haber, recommended tonight's Chat Guest, Judy Cox, and I'm SO glad Wendy did. Delving into the stories and books Judy Cox has authored, I became intrigued, very intrigued. When I read her Weird Stories from the Lonesome Café, I KNEW we had to have Judy as our Chat Guest. Judy's sense of humor is obvious from just even the titles of her books, such as That Crazy Eddie and the Science Project of Doom and Don't Be Silly, Mrs. Millie!, two titles we'll want to ask Judy about tonight, for sure! Judy's chat topic for the evening is also highly intriguing: "The Power of Persistence: Overcoming Rejection on the Path to Publication." Judy Cox understands very well how difficult it is to get published, for veteran book publishers as well as starter-outers. A warm welcome to you, Judy!

Judy: Thank you.

Mel: Judy, were either of your parents writers, and/or did they encourage you to become a writer yourself?

Judy: My mother tried to get a picture book published when I was a teenager. She did all the things I now know not to do, such as have a friend illustrate it. She also gave up after only one rejection. If I had done that, I would not be published today! My dad wrote two articles for Camping Magazine and illustrated them with his photographs.

Mel: So you learned from your mom and dad! How old were you when you started writing?

Judy: I started my first book when I was eleven, but like most kids, I never even finished the first chapter. My Dad told me to take typing so I'd always have something to fall back on : ) !

Mel: Can you see any "grown shoots" in your writing now, that were seeds when you wrote your first book at eleven?

Judy: Not at all, it was a mystery story about six girls who had a club that met in a treehouse and solved mysteries. I had fun making up their names and designing their wardrobes.

Mel: How did you get started writing professionally, then?

Judy: I started submitting stories when I was seventeen. I gathered many rejection slips, but gave up submitting manuscripts when I was in college. I started submitting nonfiction manuscripts to teaching magazines and was thrilled when I sold two.

Mel: What was the first piece you ever had published?

Judy: The first piece I had published, besides my college literary magazine, was a nonfiction article on dinosaurs in Instructor Magazine, a magazine for teachers.

Judy: I didn't keep it. I started saving my rejection slips about 10 years ago, when I began to submit fiction. I don't remember the name of the magazine. But my favorite rejection slip was from a science-fiction magazine. It said: "Sorry. Too obscure."

Judy: Partly, and partly because I was interested in the topics. Now I write almost no nonfiction. The first fiction story I sold was "Becca, the Nutcracker Mouse" to Highlights For Children.

Judy: 1996!

Mel: Judy, we've talked lately in the chat room about the ratio of our REJECTIONS to our ACCEPTANCES. And YOU have a VERY strong ratio! Figuring the 350 rejections you told us about, with the 42 sales of magazine pieces and books, you have a ratio of about 8 rejections to 1 sale--VERY GOOD! When Phyllis Reynolds Naylor was here, she shared her ratio at 5 to 1, and my own is a whopping 20 rejections to 1 sale—so YOU DONE GOOD!

Judy: Actually, figuring I have written over 100 pieces, my ratio percentage is about 10%.

Mel: That is STILL EXCELLENT!

Judy: A lot of what I write I do not even submit; they are practice pieces.

Judy: Yes, in two cases. If the manuscript is significantly changed or the editor has left. I usually query first, detailing the changes and asking if I might resubmit.

Judy: No. LOL! I don't even have it anymore!

Judy: Lots! Write short, take out excess words, characters, scenes, pay close attention to the magazine's style, how to work with editors, how to revise. How to make every word count. Magazines have been a wonderful way for me to practice and I love the short story form. So I write them just for the fun of it.

Mel: Judy, do you then recommend to all or most writers to start with magazines, since they are a kind of "short course in how to publish"?

Judy: No, I don't because many writers are novelists at heart and don't have an affinity for the short forms. I started out as a poet (unpublished for the most part :) ) so the short form is easier for me than a novel-length story. I think a writer has to write a lot, especially at first, and find what is easy and fun, basically find one's true voice through the process of writing. I have probably tried most every genre there is, including romance! (NOT submitted, BTW!)

Mel: We should have FUN writing?! How can that be?!

Judy: If it isn't fun, why do it? I LOVE writing.

Mel: Amen! Awomen!

Judy: Thank you.

Judy: I didn't start getting published until I accepted the notion that I might never get published. It's such a lottery. I asked myself if I would still write, knowing my stories might never be books. I decided the goal of publication was a false goal; that I wanted to write because I had stories to tell. And I wanted to get better at writing to tell those stories. Publishing, for me, is a side effect of my writing. Obviously, I care about getting published, because I keep submitting and writing is an art, like other arts, that is meant to be shared. But publication is only one way to share that art. I find it ironic, that when I changed my goal from getting published to getting better, I began to get more personal rejection slips—a note from an editor—and finally publication.

Mel: That is BRILLIANT advice, Judy--THANK YOU from this writer, too!

Judy: Not usually. I write the story and then look for a market. That said, be aware that the Cricket Group and Highlights have MUCH different styles. BTW, the editor at Highlights worked with me through 4 revisions over a period of 5 months on my first story. An amazing experience, a lot like a correspondence course!

Mel: Did you feel "certain signals" that it was time to change when you went from magazine publishing to publishing books?

Judy: No. I had actually been writing what I thought were picture books. Now I can usually tell the difference, but at the time, I was just sending everything to everyplace. I'd like to make one point, if I may.

Mel: Do, PLEASE!

Judy: When I first started, I made it a goal to write thirty different manuscripts and keep them circulating in the mail ALL the time. When you do that you get a lot of rejection slips, sometimes the mailbox is stuffed with rejection. You have to develop a tough skin. The practice in setting a big goal like that pays off, as does the practice in getting rejected. Think of it as actors do. You can't be right for all parts. The director might need someone taller, older, shorter, different gender. Rejection isn't necessarily personal. Of course, you ALWAYS want to reread your stories that are returned and see if they are the best they can be. I would often find I'd "outgrown" a story and stop sending it out. Not everything I write, even now, is publishable.

Mel: If I had to write "a moral to this story," it would be: The more you submit, the more you get rejected, the more you sell.

Judy: The better you get. Don't forget that part!

Mel: You mentioned submitting what you THOUGHT were picture books, Judy. What's the difference between a picture book and a short story?

Judy: A picture book has a different rhythm to it. There needs to be enough different scenes to illustrate. A short story often has more plot, deeper characterization.

Mel: Here are two similar questions:

Judy: I like fiction. I think my nonfiction sounds too encyclopedia-ish. Too dry. Someday I'd like to learn to write fascinating nonfiction. I like to make stuff up!

Judy: I'm afraid I don't. I can tell you, though, that the first picture book I sold was rejected fifteen times.

Mel: That betters Dr. Seuss's 27 rejections of his first book manuscript, And To Think That I Saw It On Mulberry Street!

Judy: I still get rejections. I hate them. But everybody gets them. It's part of the business.

Judy: Good question, Atlantic Monthly! Wouldn't that be a coup. I wonder if J. K. Rowling has tried them!

Mel: Maybe she was even rejected by them! J

Judy: I'm not disappointed at all. The only nonfiction I've had published was in the teaching magazines, and a few parenting magazines. It isn't my voice.

Judy: I was eleven years old. I'm sure I threw it out, or my mom did, years ago. If I kept everything I would be drowning in paper. I keep too much stuff as it is! : ) I do have my first story in the second grade.

Mel: I agree. I've tended to keep everything, and now MOST everything is moldering in files in the basement!

Judy: Yes, I am still teaching. I am a reading specialist in a small country school. I work half time. I enjoy teaching. It informs my writing work, and my experience as a writer provides me with a richer background to help children read and write. Patricia Reilly Giff was also a reading specialist, BTW.

Mel: What is it specifically that you learn in teaching that teaches you how to write better for children?

Judy: Chapter books, for instance, written specifically for readers in the second and third grade, are a form all to themselves. They are for readers who have graduated from Frog and Toad but aren't quite ready for Ramona the Pest. I know how to use syntax as well as vocabulary, to write for this age group. It isn't just about word lists, but also how to subtly add context clues so they can get meaning, and how to tell if a longer, harder word is decodable (making it easier to read). These are things I wouldn't have known if I didn't have a Masters degree in reading and a great deal of experience with children. But that's why I don't write Young Adult books. Even though I have a teenager, the voice eludes me and I don't have any insights into that group as a whole, although I enjoy reading it.

Mel: Better do a "Writing for Dummies," Judy, and tell us what "syntax" really is!

Judy: The way the words are organized in a sentence. For instance, young readers can get lost in a sentence with many clauses. They also get confused by adult-sounding "backwards" sentences such as, "Without knowing how, I was able to follow the track of the leopard into the darkest reaches of the jungle." Terrible example! Sorry! But you can see how starting with the end of the sentence first would confuse anyone (even me, at this point! LOL!).

Mel: Very clear, even to us dummies—THANKS, Judy!

Judy: "Becca the Nutcracker Mouse" and an article about Dinosaurs in a teaching magazine.

Mel: By "merge," I think you mean that you could bring up your form letter, and pop any publisher's address onto it, or any info from your databases, right?

Judy: Yes, that's correct.

Judy: I have only submitted book proposals twice, if by proposal you mean a proposal for a nonfiction work or fiction series. So I'm no expert on that. I submit magazine pieces with a cover letter. I submit picture book manuscripts with a cover letter. I submit chapter books—the whole manuscript—with a cover letter. But I submit novels with a query first, or a cover letter and the first three chapters.

Judy: I'm afraid there isn't any real information in those headings. I add them at different times and don't pay much attention to what I call it! I do think of a "chapter book" as being a book for second and third graders, with a linear plot, few characters, and simplified (but not simple) text. But I understand that now some people call any novel with chapters a chapter book. So the term may be changing meaning. Like YA is changing. Now that is called "Teen" in some markets. Chapter books are usually about 30-40 typewritten pages long. (I mean the ones for 2^nd and 3^rd graders). Picture books can be up to six typewritten pages, but shorter is usually better in the current market.

Mel: A question now, presubmitted from Australia:

Mel: Thanks, Judy! Maureen will read that in the transcript later, and benefit by it, I believe.

Judy: I would send it to "Submissions Editor". That publisher probably puts everything in the slush pile anyway. AND I have been picked out of the slush pile TWICE by publishers, so it DOES happen! : ) (A slush pile princess, that's me!)

Mel: We'd better maybe talk about what a "slush pile" is, Slush Pile Princess.

Judy: OK. The slush pile is the big stack of unsolicited manuscripts that publishers get. Unsolicited means they didn't request it. It's just a manuscript that a writer sends directly to the publisher. The editors do read these manuscripts and consider them, IF their guidelines state they accept unsolicited. If they don't accept unsolicited manuscripts you MUST send a query letter first and wait to hear if they want to see it. Many, many writers make the mistake of thinking there is some magic shortcut to getting published. If there is I would like to know it! : ) I truly believe it is a matter of practicing your writing craft and being persistent. May I add something?

Mel: Yes and for sure, Judy!

Judy: I was at an SCBWI (Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators) conference and the keynote speaker, an editor, held up a manuscript someone had Fed-Exed to her at the conference. She was very put out and held it up as an example of what NOT to do. I thought your readers might like to know that it is never okay to act unprofessional in this manner.

Mel: THANKS for that tip—for sure we can use it!

Judy: Great question! Yes, particularly when I was first getting started. I made worksheets (there's a teacher talking!) with title, date, main character, setting, and—here comes the important part—Main problem. First try to solve the problem—it fails because...., second try to solve the problem fails because.....and third try (it is successful) which leads to ending. I found this plan very helpful particularly for the stories I sold to the Highlights Anthology project.

Judy: Wonderful! Congratulations! I DON’T use the cute things they say, oddly enough. I find that those are funny to adults, but not to the children themselves. What I do pay attention to is the problems they encounter, especially problems with school and friends. Also, I pay attention to the type of problem and response to the problem, and the age. The responses are so different at different ages.

Mel: Your words about problems, Judy, and the first try at solving them, and so on, sound like conflict by a different and BETTER name!

Judy: Just do the same thing on pieces of paper. I'm so terrified of losing my information, that in addition to the computer, I keep a 3x5 card for every story with the date submitted, editor, publisher, date returned and comments. I keep these in a box. I also keep a piece of notebook paper in every folder for every story with the same information on it. BTW, when I first started, I ONLY put down the publisher. But editors change houses so often that I recommend writing down the name of the editor and the name of the publishing house. You might want to resubmit to a publishing house if the editor leaves, or you might want to keep track of an editor if he/she says nice things about your work.

Mel: A nicely FRESH suggestion!

Judy: You don't need a degree at all, of course! I think the best thing to do is listen to children. Be around them, listen to them, play with them and read to them. That way you will be doing something great for the children you are with and learning a lot about writing. I was once told (by an editor) that the best writers are readers first.

Judy: Gosh, they didn't have POD way back then! I am considering that for a sequel to a book that was not picked up by the publisher, but I will wait until the original story is OP.

Mel: OOPS, Out Of Print!

Judy: Yes. I used to cry. Now I swear. (I'm teasing, I don't swear. But I do stamp my feet.) Seriously, no one likes getting rejected. You pour your heart out and get a little slip of paper in the mail that seems to say, "We don't want YOU." You have to get some perspective on it. You might not have found the right home for your work. Your work might need revision. You might need to just hang in there, keep writing new stories, and keep submitting.

Mel: Here's a question, and mine like it that I wanted to ask:

Mel: How important are children's book titles? And how do you come up with such captivating and humorous titles, like That Crazy Eddie and the Science Project of Doom? and Don't be Silly, Mrs. Millie!?

Judy: Actually, most of the titles were given to the books by the publishing houses. I did think up Don't Be Silly, Mrs. Millie! but That Crazy Eddie and the Science Project of Doom came from the editor. I just called it That Crazy Eddie. I have a funny story about that. I called my first chapter book, Rosemary and Cheese. Cheese is the pet rat and Rosemary is the little girl. The editors thought it sounded like a cookbook : ) ! so they gave it the title Third Grade Pet. I HATED the title (it sounded so mundane to me!) but it was my first book and I didn't want to be difficult. That book is my best-selling book at book signings. Every third grade teacher and every third grader pick it up. It is still in print, so I guess they know what they are doing! : )

Mel: You're a GREAT titleist anyway, Judy!

Judy: Harder to crack than nonfiction? Yes, I believe it is. Particularly in magazines because they buy so much more nonfiction than fiction. Pay attention to the new trend in graphic style magazine layouts with comic-book style illustrations and very little text. I think we will see more of this in children's magazines.

Mel: Comic books were how I learned to read as a kid—maybe we're going back to those "basics."

Judy: No, I have not. But I would. I think it is a great idea.

Judy: I joined as soon as I heard about it. You can join as an associate member. You don't have to be published.

Mel: I'm asked many times if joining the SCBWI is helpful. Could you give us your answer to that question, Judy?

Judy: Yes. I have found it helpful. They have a Web site, discussion groups, newsletters. Most helpful to me are the conferences and workshops. You learn so much by meeting with other writers, beginning and advanced. Critique groups are also helpful.

Mel: Are you going to speak at any SCBWI conferences in the future where we might be able to meet and hear you, Judy?

Judy: I was at the SCBWI Oregon Conference in May. I don't have any more booked at this time.

Judy: I use Microsoft Word—Microsoft Works for its spreadsheets, as I mentioned earlier.

Judy: You might, with this caution—you don't want to be using the children's instructional time for your own purposes. A better plan is to get together with other adults who write for children.

Judy: I don't remember the exact number. There aren't that many magazines that publish fiction, so I know that number was not large. I think some book manuscripts were submitted about fifteen or sixteen times. My Family Plays Music was rejected about 15 times. when it was finally accepted, the publisher held on to it for eight years before it was finally published. I wrote the story for my three-year-old son and it came out when he was fifteen!

Mel: You just gave us a VALUABLE insight, I believe, because many of us want to write fiction, but the truth is there AREN'T that many magazine outlets for it.

Judy: True.

Judy: Yes! My son was able to discuss foreshadowing and circular plots and writing technique at an amazingly young age. I always like to meet with his English teachers at conference time so they will know he is the child of a former English teacher (my husband) and a writer. Otherwise, they aren't sure what to make of his vocabulary and advanced skills in writing. I am expecting BIG things from him if he sticks with it! LOL

Mel: Your son is probably "standing on his mother's shoulders" in his writing talent! Tell us more about My Family Plays Music, how it came about, what it’s about, and why it had such problems getting into print, Judy.

Judy: My Family Plays Music is a picture book about a child whose relatives all play different musical instruments in different bands, performing different styles of music. It is constructed like a free verse poem, not a story with a plot. The publisher had problems getting an illustrator who could complete the pictures, I believe that's why it took so long. When it came out, the illustrator, Elbrite Brown, won the Coretta Scott King/John Steptoe New Talent award in 2004. It was his first book. I was glad I'd had been patient and let the publisher keep the manuscript so long. It is an honor to see that award sticker on the cover of my book. Martin Luther King, Jr. was one of my heroes, and I wrote the book with a theme of diverse peoples (represented by different musical tastes) getting along.

Mel: CHEERS for you, your book, and that award!!!

Judy: Thanks.

Mel: That leads me to a question I'm wanting to ask, which has nothing in particular to do with writing for children. Tell us, please, about the band you play in, "Rewind," how it came to be and what kind of music you perform now, please.

Judy: I am in the three piece band, Rewind. I play bass guitar. My husband plays lead guitar and Chuck plays drums. There's a picture of the band on my Web site. We play oldies—from the 1920's to the 1980's. We play in a few local places around town. My husband and I have played together in different bands for about 27 years!

Mel: Oldies for ANY oldster, it sounds like!

Judy: Yes!

Mel: What is your typical work routine? When you WRITE, that is!

Judy: I teach four hours a day—sometimes in the morning and sometimes in the afternoon. I write for two to four hours every day. Of course, I skip a few sometimes, but I'm pretty good about maintaining a schedule. I just heard a great teacher-type quote: "Writing is thinking." I know I have to write everything down to process it in my brain!

Mel: Do you think you would write more if you didn't work out at teaching half the day?

Judy: No. I have found that four hours is probably my max anyway. Some years I have not taught, and I found that what I can catch up on is the paperwork, submissions, and promotion, but the actual creative output stayed about the same.

Mel: I have found I have the same max writing time, about four hours.

Mel: Do you mean a chapter from the novel, or a section?

Judy: The article writer says he took scenes and episodes and reworked them as short stories and sold them. This was a novel that had been rejected. Be sure to retain ALL rights if you do that. You don't want to sell a portion and have copyright problems later.

Mel: THANKS for that practical tip!

Judy: I don't have an agent.

Judy: I have an office—a really, really messy one—in a spare bedroom. When I started I worked in a corner of the family room. I used to like to write in longhand on the couch. In another house I had a favorite sunny spot on the deck. We've only lived here one year, and I don't have a favorite spot yet. Haven't got the house quite comfy yet.

Mel: One final question, in two parts:

Judy: My newest book is tentatively titled, One is a Feast for Mouse. It is a Thanksgiving story. I wrote it around Thanksgiving and it was really started from a writing exercise in the book, Steering the Craft by Ursula Le Guin—a book I highly recommend, BTW. First I write in longhand, then I begin to type, making changes as I go. I read the story to my husband and my son and they let me know what they think. If we all think it's working, I pop it in an envelope and send it out. It takes from three weeks to two years to hear from my editor. It can take from eighteen months to eight years to be published. This is not a FAST industry!

Mel: These two hours have whisked away, Judy! We very much appreciate all the tips and suggestions you have given us for our writing. And we can see why your books are such hits with young readers, with the sparkling sense of humor you have! I am SO glad you were recommended to us as a Chat Guest, and I only regret that I waited so long to invite you. We will be reading your books to learn even more that will help us in writing and publishing for children. And I'm sure that we will come up with many more questions for you. Would you consider coming back to our chat room for another visit in the future? We would ALL like that very much!

Judy: Yes, thank you. I would love to come back!

Mel: Judy Cox, THANKS again for being our chat guest tonight! How lovely it would be to hear you and your band "Rewind"! We'll be looking forward to news about them, and to reading your new books as they come into print. We wish you our PUBLISHING BEST, Judy, and look forward to your next visit!

Judy: Thank you.

Mel: Goodnight, every Children'sWriter! SleepWrite!