Mel is Mel Boring, moderator of this interview with Dominic Catalano and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site.

Interviews are held every other Thursday evening for two hours, beginning at 9 CANADA/
Atlantic Time, 8 Eastern Time, 7 Central Time, 6 Mountain Time, and 5 Pacific Time.
 

Mel: A GOOD last-Thursday-of-April WELCOME to you to the ICL Guest Chat with Dominic Catalano! This is Nick's first time in our chat room, and before the evening is over, I know you will be hoping it's not his last time with us. For the past about-15 years, Nick Catalano has illustrated many picture books written by other writers, and published as well books he has both written and illustrated. He has just completed his 25^th book. Nick got his start in illustrating a long time ago, and it has been a life's work for him. But it was taking ICL's basic course, he tells us, that got him started in the writing of stories for children. I am as eager as you are to hear how, in such a short time, Nick Catalano has become such a huge success. WELCOME to the ICL Chat Room, Nick, I feel so fortunate that you could be with us tonight!

Nick: Thank you, I'm glad to be here.

Mel: Nick, what degree(s) do you hold and how are they applicable to your writing and illustrating?

Nick: I've been a perpetual student, I'm afraid. I have an MA in fine arts, and an MFA in illustration, and I'm just finishing up my PHD in art education. All my experience has given me insight as to how visual art creates meaning. I feel that any amount of study can give your writing and art more depth and power!

Mel: What early experiences with books do you remember?

Nick: When I was a boy I just inhaled books. My mother loved to read and loved picture books so would introduce me to many of the classics of that era. In 1963 along came Where the Wild Things Are by Maurice Sendak, and it just changed my life. I knew I wanted to draw pictures in books and it was my mother who told me that I would be an illustrator.

Mel: Where the Wild Things Are really seemed to "revolutionize" children's picture books. How do you think that book of Sendak's accomplished that, Nick?

Nick: There was something very different about the work. It held the story, the narrative, in tension between the two elements of writing and pictures. The depth of the narrative was further enhanced by the tracery qualities of the art. You were witness to a story that had mythical proportions. It tied into ancient stories of coming of age and alienation. It was just so powerful, but at the same time fun and enjoyable for young children.

Mel: What do you mean by "tracery qualities of the art" in Where the Wild Things Are?

Nick: tracery refers to those qualities that stir up images in a reader’s imagination that link back to other stories and related images—"tracing" a line back to other images. Like the wild thing on the cover reminds us of the Minotaur from ancient Greek tales.

Mel: Who was your favorite author and/or illustrator growing up, and why?

Nick: Well, Sendak was my guy. I mean you just couldn't believe how different his work was and of course it always was controversial. I also loved David McPhail, Arnold Lobel, and Mercer Mayer. Leo Lionni was special in a design way. And of course I was a boy at the beginning of Eric Carle’s run. One other I would mention from that era was early Tomie dePaola.

Mel: Who are some of your favorite authors and illustrators now?

Nick: This is a tough one. What comes to mind are these book: I loved My Friend Rabbit by Eric Rohmann, and Jean Cassels’ The Mysterious Collection of Dr. David Harleyson, which features formal paintings of Mother Goose characters with clues to a mystery tucked into the back of the canvases. I'm having a brain freeze with so many images flying through my head—there are really some wonderful artists out there right now, and the competition gets harder ever season!

Nick: It took me about five years of self-promotion before my first contract. But I was rather inconsistent with my promotion. I would go to New York about twice a year with a portfolio. It was a Society of Children’s Book Writers and Illustrators event at Pratt Institute that gave me my first break. An editor from Philomel Books liked my work and asked me to come in for an interview—and I was lucky that that editor was Patty Gauch!

Mel: Yes, you were lucky to see Patty--she has helped MANY writers and illustrators! But there is no denying the QUALITY of your artwork, Dominic Catalano! When you as an artist go to New York with your portfolio, where do you go? Who do you see? Do you make appointments? Are there "Show Your Art" days/times?

Nick: Now you have to make sure that publishers are considering new artists, so first you should find the publishers in a market guide. Then, normally you will make an appointment with the editor or the art director depending on the house you’re interested in—they're all different. Sometimes you literally drop off your portfolio at the reception desk and pick it up later, which is rough. However, now with the Internet I have been indicating on a mailer that a potential art buyer can see my work on line—this is much more effective!

Nick: Many are discouraged right now with the market—the bottom line has driven the expectations of publishers up, and established talent prevails. That’s one of the reasons we see so many celebrity books. But the good news is that editors are always looking for the next group of creatives. The thing is that now your first efforts have to be so much more in line with the higher standards set by a conservative industry—you've got to do your homework and see what’s out there, and you have to be extremely critical of your own work. In trade books, conceptual work is in; in mass-market books we see a lot of licensed characters. But you have to be aware of the trends. I do that by being a Society of Children’s Book Writers and Illustrators member, taking classes, going to the bookstore!

Mel: Nick, take us back to the time you took the Institute of Children's Literature's basic course. How did you come to taking it, and what were your goals before taking the course, and then AFTER taking the course?

Nick: I'm trained, really, in the visual arts and have always drawn. I needed and wanted some help with my writing, but writing that is specific to our audience. The ICL class gave me information about character development, vocabulary, pacing, plotting, all applicable to the children's market, so it was invaluable. I still struggle with the writing, but I've learned over the years how to divide what I want to say between my words and my pictures. As an illustrator who writes I have an advantage in the picture book area because I can visualize the story with pictures and allow the written text to be more colorful. It's a tricky balance that is tough for writers who tend to write too much description.

Nick: My work in magazines has only been as an illustrator and I've gotten wonderful letters from the writers of the stories and poems that my work has shared the pages with. I would like to write more short stories for magazines, but time is a hindrance. Plus I think that fewer and fewer magazines exist that are accepting literary-style prose—they’re more educational. I have to admit that my main interest is in trade hardcover—guess I'm a snob in that way!

Nick: I primary draw pictures and as an illustrator I can come in after the manuscript is chosen for publication and enjoy the process of interpretation. My goal is to write all of my own books as well as illustrate them, but I love to get into an author’s head through their story and see what comes out!

Mel: Nick, do writers ever worry about what might be YOUR interpretation of what THEY have written?

Nick: I've been very fortunate to have authors who have responded positively to my interpretation, but I know that this is an issue for many writers, especially writers just starting in the field. Remember that two things are going on: one, an editor has hand-picked an illustrator for a story because they envision how the artist will echo the written words—it’s what they're good at! Two, the illustrators working the field today are specialists in the book form and treat the words with reverence. But you also have to allow for something different to happen than you may have originally seen in your minds eye!

Mel: I think you are just VERY GOOD at what you do! AND modest, Nick!

Nick: I don't think so—the emphasis is still on the story! The thing is, as an artist you can present a complete package. It's rare, though, that a writer is ever asked if they draw—but they always ask an illustrator if they can write!

Nick: Most of what I see from students in my classes and adults in my seminars who are authors/ illustrators lacks a substantial story. That's why I say that the emphasis is still on the story itself. One way to train yourself is to take an existing fairy tale or folk tale, or even a folk song, and do a visual variation of it. See how the story works and decide how the art will enhance and modify the mood. I think that being an author/illustrator has its perks, but you still have to get by the editor, and that's the rub!

Mel: Nick, did you illustrate for others' books before you wrote AND illustrated your own first one? And what WAS the first book you BOTH wrote and illustrated?

Nick: I had two assignments given to me at the same time. Patty Gauche liked my Wolf Plays Alone, but she wanted to see how I would do with a given manuscript. So, she assigned me The Bear Who Loved Puccini by Arnold Sundgaard. Both titles are sadly out of print, now, but it was a great way to learn the business having both experiences to compare!

Nick: I love animal characters! But, yes, I hear this from time to time as well. I think that animal characters give us a chance to look at ourselves through a lens that takes away some of the harshness of self-reflection. What I think happens is that we go in and out of stylistic tendencies in relation to what current theories are present. Educational theories have a tendency to want more realism, but realism can be harsh. In animal guise we can speak to our darker ways as Aesop did. I like that!

Nick: What I want to say is this: If anthropomorphic animals express your ideas in a genuine and sincere way, and if they're not too cute, but real characters with real problems, go for it! What sell are solid stories that take a character through a rough patch to a conclusion that they themselves made happen. It doesn't matter if they’re a little boy or a little pig! It's what they do that is of importance!

Mel: A special greeting for you, Nick!

Nick: Hey, Hope, thank you!

Nick: I use a mixed media and I find I get great results in the reproduction process. I start with a line drawing in carbon pencil. Then I apply a powdered pigment (sepia tone) to the surface and erase that value—it looks like a monochromatic underpainting. Then I use an airbrush and regular brushes to apply acrylic inks. Then I add highlighting with pastel pencils. I do all this because basically I draw, and I like to handle drawing materials better then paint. But I get great prints, so I stick to it!

Nick: I love Canada? Why do you ask?

Mel: I THINK kaye is from Canada, Nick--as MANY of our chatsters are!

Nick: The Canadian publishing scene is very creative at present. I think some of the visual work coming out of Toronto is very exciting—more European in nature and more conceptual. We tend to be a little more conservative here in the states, I think.

Mel: Two similar questions grouped together:

Nick: Photography is difficult as an expressive form in books—I think primarily because it tends to be too literal. However, with some of the photo digital software available, we're seeing more. Tana Hoban used photos in a conceptual way—not so much for content, but for the image and I think that was very successful!

Nick: Not that I know of, but the good news is that much of the technical information is available in books and other sources. Writing with Pictures by Uri Shulevitz is still a great source. Most artists working in the trade field are actually fine artists: printmakers, painters. You don't have to be especially trained in illustration (which tends to be more an editorial thing) to do well in the field. What you do have to know is how to tell a visual story, how to create a narrative sequence, and create drama in the turning of the page. I just sat and looked at books when I first started—and that was a great education!

Mel: I heartily agree about the Shulevitz book! If you could buy only ONE book about illustration, his would be MY choice!

Mel: Thank you for that great tip, omalizzie!

Nick: I've been a semi-regular in Ladybug and have had work in Cricket and Spider as well. I did a lot of work for the Children’s' Better Health Magazines for a long time when I was first starting out. Now I guess I'm an old-timer and magazines see themselves as a forum for new talent, so I don't do as much. I pretty much concentrate on trade books and the little reading series that textbook companies put out. They can be very well paying for both the author and illustrator—you may want to look into that market as well!

Mel: Tell us, Nick, how many years has it been since you started out in children's writing and illustrating?

Nick: My first book came out in 1991 and I just completed my 25th title, and I have done 42 readers. But I feel like I'm just getting started! I have two titles on the drawing board now. Sing a Song, Little Mole, and a retelling of Fox Went Out on a Chilly Night, done as a barnyard play production. I hope to continue into my twilight years!

Mel: WOW! We stand in awe of your MANY accomplishments in so SHORT a time!

Nick: If you are an author/illustrator and can produce a well rendered dummy, then yes, but only if you intend on illustrating the work yourself. I wouldn't suggest getting an artist friend to do your dummy or hiring a college student. Typically a submission has a short cover letter, the written manuscript, a dummy (copies, please, not original art), and two finished samples (again color copies)!

Mel: I know you have a son named Peter, Nick, because I heard him when we practiced together. Do your personal life experiences and family influence your writing and illustrating?

Nick: It's strange how my personal life affects my work. I rarely use an experience as it really occurred. I take some little event and try to figure out what sort of universal theme it has within it and write around that theme. Like for instance, Mr. Basset Plays is about a wealthy Basset hound who wants to rediscover playing. This was based on a Basset that lived next door to me who was always alone in the backyard of a fabulously wealthy family. Peter is always doing something that just makes me laugh out loud but if I tried to base a story on his antics it wouldn't be the same—you have to be there, you know?

Mel: Do you keep a journal and sketchbook?

Nick: I love keeping a sketch book. Mostly I draw from my imagination, little doodles and visual musings. I've always wanted to keep a writing journal, but I'm still intimidated—go figure!?

Mel: Why did you want to write and illustrate children's books?

Nick: For me the children's picture book was the ideal form of expression. I love the blending of words and pictures and design elements. In addition, I love the audience—kids are the greatest critics and the most passionate consumers. When they love your work, it's so genuine and real. In addition, I think it's been my way of passing down the little things in life that I'm excited about. I make no pretense that I'm going to change the world, but if one child finds the same delight in some aspect of the world that I do, I get a kick out of that alone.

Mel: Do you feel it’s important to have a message to relate to children as an author and illustrator?

Nick: I know so many new authors, especially, who try to teach or even preach with their stories. But I want to reach the kids with experiences that are universal—I guess I think that the best teaching is that as well, not a hammer over the head but a simple suggestion of a shared experience!

Nick: I usually start with several visual images in my head and literally write around them. I know, it sounds backwards, but as a visual person I tend to see my story rather than hear it in my head as words. So the first thing I'll do is a very general storyboard and map out the basic scenes. Then I'll write brief descriptions of the pictures I'm seeing for each spread. Then I'll write the prose. I teach this very method in my classes to both illustrators and authors—I find it plots the story better visually!

Mel: Nick, could you explain to us, in detail, how, for example, your Mr. Basset Plays book FIRST began, where you went from those first images, and how it then because a submission, and then a real book?

Nick: I started with four images of Mr. Basset trying to play like the children he was seeing in the park, but because he was wealthy he used his money at first to "buy his happiness." So the images were Mr. Basset on a big yacht, then Mr. Basset collecting famous pieces of art, then he was on a huge horse, and finally he as bored with a symphony orchestra. Then I had to write the story around these images and come to some conclusion. I submitted the story with the first four images I mentioned as final art along with a storyboard to my editor and was so happy when it was accepted for publication. It took another two months to finish the art!

Mel: EXCELLENTLY DETAILED description, Nick—THANK YOU! What is a picture book, exactly, and how can I go about starting to create one?

Nick: To me there are different forms in the picture book genre. Sort of a pure form is a work in which there exists a total marriage between words and pictures—where you can't understand the meaning of the work without both parts being present. Then there's the illustrated story book which most people say is understandable through the written text alone; but I find that the pictures will spin the text in different ways. Hence the variations you'll find for fairy tales and such. I prefer the first, pure form because I think more visually and I can have the words and pictures relate in a variety of ways. Sometimes the pictures are doing something very much the same as the words, and sometimes they are showing something opposite to the words—this is where the fun is!

Mel: Such a WISE and complete answer! Should a new author try to find an illustrator on their own?

Nick: I have to say NO! It really isn't a good idea for several reasons. As an author you may only have access to a limited number of artists in your area. An editor has a full range of artists on file to choose from. Also, editors are reluctant to split up a team, so even if they like your prose they might not think the art is suitable, but the whole work is rejected anyway!

Mel: Nick Catalano, listening to and chatting with you this evening has made me wonder why we haven't had you in our Guest Chat many times before. You understand so WELL what it's like to begin as a children's writer, AND as a children's illustrator. THANK YOU for answers, tips and suggestions shared so honestly with us! We have a much better understanding now of the relationship of both writing and illustrating, and the relationship between the writer and the illustrator of a book for children. We also have lots more questions left over. I'm wondering, would you be willing to return to our chat room again in the future, to chat with us further?

Nick: I'd be honored—I can't believe our time is coming to a close!

Mel: Thursday, May 12 is the day Phyllis Reynolds Naylor will be our Chat Guest in the ICL Chat Room. Phyllis won the Newbery Medal in 1992 with her touching novel, Shiloh. Since then there has been Saving Shiloh, as well, in 1997. But Phyllis Reynolds Naylor's latest books are about Alice, including Alice on Her Way and Including Alice. With her Alice books, Phyllis has encountered censorship, and knows from experience about banned books. There is no more experienced author of middle-grade and young adult novels than Phyllis Reynolds Naylor. At the same time, this Newbery Award-winning author is one of the most approachable children’s writer celebrities I know. So I hope you can be here Thursday, May 12 to chat up close and personal with Phyllis.

Mel: Again, Nick Catalano, THANK YOU for being here tonight, and for all the wisdom you have so freely given us about writing and illustrating children's books. Because of your wisdom, we other writers can save time and effort in our submissions of picture books and board books in that part of the market for children's books. We wish you well in your new teaching position, and we'll be looking for your further books for children. BEST of FORTUNE to you, Nick, in both your university teaching and in your children's writing!

Nick: Thanks so much, Mel—stay in touch!

Mel: Goodnight, EveryCHILDREN’Swriter!