Jan is Jan Fields, moderator of this interview with Bonny Becker, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked Bonny.

Jan: Welcome to SPECIAL GUEST CHAT: "Birthing A Book" with Bonny Becker! Pull up a chair and hear about the exciting and varied path books take on the road to the bookstore. And welcome, Bonny -- I'm so glad you're here.

Bonny: Yes, this is all new to me, but fun!

Jan: Right now, the chatters are looking at your gorgeous new book...when is it coming out?

Bonny: The official release date is Nov. 13, but I think it will be in stores in a few weeks.

Jan: That is so cool...I really like the cover.

Bonny: Thanks! That's not how I pictured Holbrook, but I like him.

Jan: So now you've done books about a crocodile and about a lizard -- you have a thing for reptiles?

Bonny: I think I do. Actually I seem to have a thing about animals. It's kind of eerie, but most of my books involve animals in one way or another. Or at least a non-human entity--like a robot.

Jan: Yeah...My Brother the Robot was quite different -- it's your only novel too...right?

Bonny: So far. Holbrook is a mid-grade novel. And I have a mss. going around that's a novel--which involved animals. :)

Jan: Ohhhhh...here I thought Holbrook was a picture book. He's a novel, how cool. So do you consider yourself more of a novelist or a picture book author -- where's your "comfort zone?"

Bonny: Sort of both right now. But I love novels and most of my focus is on those these days.

Jan: Well, folks are asking questions like crazy so I better post some before they storm the castle and demand I stop hogging the guest.

Bonny: Cool. Fire away. :)

Bonny: I was looking for a lizard who seemed "artistic." Most are so blunt and scaley. So I looked for something slim and delicate and with a dreamy look in his eyes. And came across the lesser eared lizard. Latin name: holbrookia maculata. Holbrook seemed perfect of my guy!

Bonny: I think they are these days. The picture book market is supposedly picking up, but it's still difficult. That's one reason why I started focusing more on novels.

Bonny: It really varies. With my first book, I didn't even see the art until it was almost final and even though there were things wrong with the illustrations, nothing was changed. With The Christmas Crocodile, lllustrated by David Small, I had more input. Suggesting some ideas, etc. But it went both ways. David actually came up with the idea for a "silent" ending. The picture told the story.

Jan: Oh, yeah, I love the end of that one with the egg. It's kind of a big deal to get ANY input on your first few books isn't it? Well, any books really.

Bonny: Yes, I'd spelled it out in the text and David suggested just illustrating and kids love it. I ask them to guess what came out of the egg and someone aways manages to come up with a baby crocodile. Really, how much input you get can vary. It depends a lot on the editor and the publishing house. Some treat it like a real estate deal where the buyer and the seller never meet. But others are open to suggestions for illustrator, etc.

Bonny: Okay, I got a chance to answer this question earlier. So don't be fooled. I cannot type at lightening speed, but it's kind of a long answer. Here goes: Perfect grammar isn't necessary. But it should be clear that you know this isn't perfect grammar. Don't send it out not knowing if your grammar is right. If you know what it really should be I think that will come through. You'll pick the right places to make "mistakes." But most importantly make sure the imperfect grammar is clearly a deliberate choice for your author's voice or a character's voice. A casual or folksy conversational style is just fine. Some parents and teachers complain about the grammar in the Junie B. Jones books. I haven't read many of them, but apparently Junie has a distinct way of talking that involves funny terms and kid mistakes. It's clear this is Junie's voice, not an author who doesn't know what they're doing. Kids love these books. Contractions are fine. "I should have called," he said. Here's the rest of it: Contractions are fine. "I should have called," he said. Doesn't sound like most kids. An editor will totally understand: "Should've called," he said. A little kid who says, "Daisy and me went to the store." Is probably fine. Not many kids are going to say "Daisy and I…" Sentence fragments are fine. Again it should be clear that you are deliberately using fragments for pacing or effect. She bolted out the door. Slam! Where was he? She felt panic rising. Stop! Think! Where would he go this time of night?

Bonny: I always have nagging doubts. It always feels as if it could be better, but I've gotten better at knowing when it's ready for the world. I go through a LOT of drafts and reviews. I'm in two critique groups. One live and one on-line. I always let my stories sit after I make what I think is a final draft and then get back to it. I drag my feet for a quite awhile. Much more important than getting it out quickly or quickly following up with an editor is to get it right. Mostly it's taken a lot of experience to know when it's there.

Bonny: I don't know for sure. I've heard that they have more than enough fantasies coming across their desks. They say the picture book market is picking up. Books about more holidays, like, say Flag Day are often mentioned. A few teachers and librarians I've talked to say the kids are eating up non-fiction these days. It's important to have some sense of the market, but I like this quote by Barbara Kingsolver: "Close the door. Write with no one looking over your shoulder. Don't try to figure out what other people want to hear from you; figure out what you have to say. It's the one and only thing you have to offer."

Bonny: I do have an agent. It's very hard to get an agent, as you probably know. I still think about the best way to go about it is to send out your mss. yourself. Hopefully you'll eventuually get a sale. THEN approach an agent. Also, go to writing conferences. Not so much to approach an agent, but to get a feel for what he or she is like and might be interested in. And even more true for getting to know what an editor wants. It's such an individual choice. You can up your chances by knowing somehthing about the taste of the person you're sending to.

Bonny: There are exceptions. A few longer books, especially books by bigger names like Kevin Henkes. And books for infants and younger toddlers. But I've been told that the way a printing press works makes it most cost-effective to print books in 8 page increments, which for most picture books works out to 32 pages. I don't know how much of this you already know, but several of those pages will be used up with title page, copyright page, end pages. I heard Patti Lee Gauch, chief editor at Philomel speak recently, and for 32 pages she thinks in terms of 12 "spreads." Two facing pages make one spread. Does everyone here know about making dummys?

Jan: You mean dummys just for our own use, right? We who do not illustrate NEVER send dummies to editors.

Bonny: Right. Not for them. For you the author to see if your story is working as picture book.

Jan: So, how does a non-illustrator make a practice dummy?

Bonny: It's pretty simple. take 8 blank pages, fold them in half and staple at the seam. You now have a 32 page "dummy." Now lay out your text on the dummy and then read it aloud as you would to a child. Notice where you turn the page. Notice the natural pause that creates and the natural sense of suspense and adjust your story so those natural breaks work for you. Notice if you have good ideas for illustrations in your text. Imagine your story with pictures. Do you need all the things you say or can the pictures tell part of the story? It's incredibly useful. You'll learn a lot.

Bonny: It varies a lot. For some books I've had to change a word or two. For my novel, MY BROTHER THE ROBOT, I changed three or four scenes. For my new novel, HOLBROOK: A LIZARD'S TALE, I changed the last half of the book. Mostly I've been fine with the changes. I've had to lose some scenes I really liked, but the books were better in the end. I talked with Linda Sue Park who won the Newbery a few years ago for her book, A SINGLE SHARD. I asked her about editorial changes and she had an interesting thing to say. Basically she said, "You know there are a lot of ways to get to a good story. I'm not wedded to exactly my way. If an editor has an idea that will still mean the story is good, I'm open to it." At least that's what I remember her saying. Hope I'm not misrepresenting her. But I thought that was a pretty amazing insight from a Newbery winner. But you do have to figure out what's non-negotiable in your story. There were several things in Holbrook that I realizeed I wasn't going to change.

Bonny: "Birthing a book" sounds so uncomfortable doesn't it! Glad I don't write like Harry Potter type books. :) But I think it's all pretty similar. You get an idea, write it down as best you can, get feedback, edit it. get more feedback. edit it. get more feedback... and then one day you decide it's ready. Send it out. Get it back. make some changes. Well, you guys kknow the drill. ONe day it's accepted. And that is a joyous feeling no matter what you've written. I do think it's very similar.

Bonny: Yes, a little. The first thing I got published was an article in the Sunday supplement magazine for The Arizona Republic (freelance.) I was a journalist for a number of years and worked for some trade magazines (advertising mags) later.

Bonny: Five years. Five years after I started writing exclusively for the children's market. AFter that became my goal and I focused on it. I'd written for probably 20 years before that one way or another.

Bonny: I'm doing as many speaking engagements as I can. My publisher has sent out many review copies--especially to the library and school market. They are experts in that area--the "institutional market"--so I'm leaving that in their hands. But I'm approaching the local independent bookstores. I think that's one of the most leveraged things you can do. Get indies interested in you book and they might reccomend you to BookSense, their list of favored books, which gets a lot of attention. Becoming friends with your bookstore owners, is a very good thing.

Bonny: I give my agent finished manuscripts, especially since what I write is fiction--usually shorter fiction. It pretty much has to speak for itself.

Bonny: Oh, boy I was afraid someone would ask that. A picture book has something "essential" about it. It just has a kernel that seems deeper than the story itself. Aaack, I find it really hard to explain. But I know it when I see it. A picture book has a different pace. Man, I need to come up with a better answer. But I've thought it about a lot and can't quite define it. The best answer I have, I guess, is to read as many of both types of stories as you can. When I first started out, I even took picture books from the library and typed them word for word just to get a feel for them.

Jan: To me...a picture book is like a poem (even when it's prose) there is a sense of something beyond what is being said...another deeper story, the one that will be revealled by the pictures. For a nonfiction picturebook -- most have much more visual opportunties than a nonfiction article. And a sense of story...even in the nonfiction. So...those things play a part. So does marketing -- will there be enough market to invest in the nonfiction idea to the level of a picture book?

Bonny: I agree.

Bonny: I think, for me, it would be to join a critique group or get some form of feedback for your writing after you leave ICL. And to not fear rewrites. Rewriting is your best friend. The fact that you need to rewrite or that it takes you years to get published says nothing about your talent.

Bonny: No. I write it first. My first goal really is a good story, becaue if I get that right eventually everything else will follow.

Bonny: I hope not! My latest picture book coming out from Candlewick in 2008 (plug here ;) is A Visitor for Bear featuring a grumpy bear and an unbearabley cheerful mouse. CAndlewick is interested in more. guestspeaker As with rhyme--it's all a matter of doing it well. If you send in a great mss. none of the "rules" will matter.

Jan: I don't think the problem is that publishers don't want them -- kids love them so publishers want them. The problem is that you have such stiff competition and it's so easy to get really really really cute when writing animal picture books and overly cute can kill a manuscript's chances.

Bonny: I'm doing a presentatin at the Whidbey Island Writers Conference (in the Northwest) and the title of one my talks is Ricky Racoon gets Royally Rejected and it's about how cute alliterative names aren't enough and the ways to make an animal story work.

Bonny: I'd like to add something. Patti Lee Gauch who is one of the most respected editors in publishing conducted a workshop here recently. And she talked about something I know a lot of writers wonder about namely: "I have a good story. There's nothing wrong with it. Why isn't it selling?" She said your story has to be more than a good story. it HAS to stand out in some way. You need either a unique idea, a unique character and/or a unique voice. It has to feel like something that everyone hasn't seen before.

Bonny: Are you a professional illustrator. Or at least in that league? If not, then definitely don't. And even if you are, the old advice is still true. Usaully you'll have a better chance of getting your first stories accepted if you don't include the art.

Bonny: I really don't do short stories, so I'm not the best to help you. My main piece of advice is to know the markets. You HAVE to read the magazines you want to submit to. As with picture books, take some sample stories from the magazine and type them out. Most magazines have a distinct voice and form to their articles and stories.

Bonny: Both. At least for me, I started to feel the rythmn. I started to get a feel for the length of sentences. For how the text transitioned from scene to scene. Often books and stories are cluttered up and slowed down by what I call "logistics." The simple process of moving your characters about. And there are techniques for handling that simply and with some punch.

Bonny: I quit my day job (corporate marketing and investor relations *groan*) shortly after my first book came out. But that's only because I had a husband willing to support me while I pursued this carreer. As I had supported him earlier. I still couldn't live on my earnings if that's all I had. That's one reason I also teach at ICL and do freelance editing and critiquing and school visits.

Bonny: No do them just for yourself.

Bonny: Kind of good story behind that one. My agent had sent Holbrook to several publishers and they were having trouble with the subject matter of art. Holbrook is a lizard who wants to be an artist. No one in his small town appreciates him because he paints things that look weird to them (every artists story, right?:) Anyway, for some reason, the focus on art didn't work for several publishers. So I started researching looking for similar books. Linda Sue's A SINGLE SHARD was the closest. That was Clarion. I suggested Clarion to my agent and they loved it!

Bonny: Tough decision. When I was subbing on my own, I was pretty much willing to send all 40 publishers that I was aware of! But I don't think that's usually the best way to go. After five rejections, it's probably time to drop back, reconsider your story. Make some changes if you can see weak spots. Then send out again. Probably after about 15 (?) I'd be inclined to file it away. But I wouldn't throw it away. It's time might come or you might suddenly realize what it needs or meet just the right editor.

Bonny: Oooh, this is kind of embarrassing. The idea for Holbrook came to me 25 years ago. At least some of it's barest bones. Animal artists. Parody. Set in San Francisco (in my book it's Golden City). I just filed it away. Then dusted it off maybe ten years later. Did a first draft. Polished that up. Showed it to Jane Yolen at a conference, she informed me it wasn't a book. Gulp. Put it away. then about three years ago, I pulled it out. And really started working on it. Plus by that time I'd written MY BROTHER THE ROBOT, so now I was starting to have clue. I'd say it took me about three years after really getting serious about it.

Bonny: This is a big topic and a big deal. It's what will give your story meaning. It's about your theme, really. What is it that your character is learning about life? You don't want to get preachy. But think about what your character's inner personality problem might be. Let's say... too impetuous, reckless. So that's the characteristic you want challenged by the story events. And that's the characteristic she'll use to solve her problems. Only it won't work, right? So she'll try different strategies... until she sees, learns, experiences enough to modify her behavior. To learn, grow and change. So resolving your dilemmas tie into what your character as a "character" would try. That will lead to consequences which will lead to new action which will lead ot new reaction on her part. The thing is to not think in terms of events so much, but get into your character's head and then think of events that can happen to them that relate to what they want, what they need and how they are ultimately going to be challenged and changed. This sounds very abstract and it is. But when I "clicked" to story it was this. Get inside my character, then think about plot.

Bonny: It's hard. It's so easy for me to go with the straight forward task. The ICL lessons. My latest attempt is to demand of myself that I write for at least an hour and THEN to my lessons or my critiques.

Bonny: I love seeing my students grow. I love it when something I say seems to "click." They suddenly get an insight.

Bonny: I have no trouble getting ideas. Probably true for most of you. More ideas than you have time for! But what really gets ideas rolling for me is to walk and my mind just starts to roam and amble and suddenly a little Ah-ha! will happen. But it's hard to sort it down to the idea that really is worth the time and effort. I think in terms of "energy." Somehow the right idea, just has the energy. It won't go away. I take a journal, for sure. And I just open myself.

Jan: On thing I like to do with travel...especially to very different sorts of places is to make sensory notes about the differences in detail...so I can use those places in stories. So I don't look for ideas so much...as I store sense impressions so that when the idea comes (which may be well after I'm home) I have a record of the sensory details I experienced to draw from to make my idea real and vital.

Bonny: I get a lot of feedback. I'm in two critique groups and often they'll look at a story several times each. I'll get feedback from one group. Change the story and then get feedback from the other group. And I have a few "loners' a couple people outside the loop that can bring fresh eyes to it, if I need that. I always let a story sit. I never send it off right away even when I think it's done. i give it several week to "cook." I think sending things off too soon, is probably one of the most common problems.

Bonny: I write a first draft, second draft, third draft, by then I'm hopefully into more subtle changes. I'll probably do a few drafts at that level. And then I give it my crit group In other words, I like to give out something I feel is already fairly polished. I listen to the feedback. And I'll usually try most of it. There's nothing to lose by simply writing a version that includes most of their suggestions. I can always go back. It's taken me a long time to learn how to sort out the feedback. And I'm still never really sure when I send out a story that maybe it couldn't be different.

Jan: As an instructor and with your other critique work, you see a lot of common problems, I know -- what are some things you would suggest folks watch for?

Bonny: Sending out too soon, as I mentioned. In terms of the writing, not using concrete images-specific adjectives, proper nouns-instead of "we're going to the grocery store." You immediate have more richness if you write " we're going to McGregor's Grocery Store." And stories that don't really have a point. That's that theme thing. Why does it matter that this story happened. Who or what got changed by it. Why did it start on this day, in this place with this incident. What's it about? It can't just be a series of events. The events have to add up to something.

Bonny: Yes. You have to make time for writing. But not necessarily every day. As best you can try to do that, but sometimes it's not possible.

Bonny: A picture book is really simple. It deals with one core idea. Usually only a few characters. And a limited timeframe. Often just a short moment in a child's day. Bedtime or bathtime. Or a day or two. So if you have a bigger world than that, think about a novel.

Bonny: It is really hard to get published. did you see my earlier answer about making sure you have a unique idea, a unique character or a unqiue voice and ideally maybe all three. You have to do something that makes your story stand out. Patti Gauch said most writers simply don't go far enough. They don't push their language, their ideas, their characters to extremes. About writing something trashy. Well, I tried that. I tried to write a romance novel. Those suckers are harder than they look! When I was first trying to get published, it really bothered me that some pretty junky, silly books got published. I knew i was doing better than that! But just because some weak books slip through you don't really want to count as that as your publishing strategy. Believe when your book is out in the world, you'll want it to be the best it can be and you'll be grateful for those editors who forced you to do your best.

Bonny: The younger the reader the shorter the chapters, obviously. I tend to break my chapters at about 5 to 6 typewritten pages. That will be a chapter in a book of about 8 to 10 pages. But I write mid-grade. I guess just look for any significant change in scene or time. And see if that works as a natural break.

Jan: Do you think a nonfiction book needs chapter lengths about the same (lilyphenix wants to know) -- do you see chapter breaks working very different in nf?

Bonny: No, I think non-fiction is very similar. About the same length. Maybe 2 or three manuscript pages for an early elementary book. 5-6 pages for older elementary. 10 to 20 for a YA book. A major change in focus or topic would probably be the trigger for a new chapter in that case.

Bonny: I met my on-line group through Children's Writer--an on-line community of writers of about 2,000 members. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/childrens-writers/ I think it's important to lurk for awhile. Post for awhile. Get a feel for the people. Often you'll find you start chatting personally wiht someone. It grows from there.

Bonny: I think you may need a little more information in a magazine story. But not much. Maybe something like: Let's go to the store. (picture of Stacy and Bill on a camel) for a picture book versus something like Let's go to the story. Bill and Stacy jumped on the camel. for a magazine story.

Bonny: Not necessarily. I went straight for books. I just wasn't that interested in short stories. And the craft I wanted to work on was picture books. So I made that my goal.

Bonny: Ha! Well, I did lamaze and it hurt like... heck. :) I wondered why in the world didn't I do meds? Was I insane? But there's no way around the pains of writing a book, I guess. It's so hard. you're putting your soul on the line and then sending it out there for everyone to judge. Sheesh. Who else has to do that? Support is essential, i think. Some kind of crit group. A supportive friend or spouse or editor. Someone has to give to you. Reading good writing is helpful. It's inspiring. It reminds me why I want to do this and what I'm aiming for. Maybe the best thing that helped me was to realize just because it was hard didn't mean I was doing anything wrong. It IS hard. No one that i'm aware of just sits down and it flows like wine from their fingers. They go through many drafts. They go through dark nights of the soul. They feel like idiots. They want to give up. I think I became a published writer, because I just kept coming back.

Bonny: They can be very effective. But you have to be selective. In my book, JUST A MINUTE, I use the word vermillion. Even if the reader doesn't know the meaning it works. It flows. And it's pretty clear in context. I've used "big" words in many of my picture books. But it's because this is just the right word. In just the right spot.

Bonny: Oh, wow. Tough one. Like most authors, I'm pretty devoted to them all. I love HOLBROOK. It's about the artistic experience and I think most writers can relate to it. (But it's all rolled up into a exciting, funny story.) I think I always love the story I'm currently writing the best. It's always going to be so great!

Bonny: It might be in earlier text. But if not, I will selectively add illustrator notes. This is the time a note is appropriate. I do them this way. (Stacy and what's his name climb onto a giant camel). In other words, I put in below the line of text in parenthesis, and I put the action in present tense and I keep it simple.

Bonny: Yes. I think to be a top of the top writer takes talent. There's just an indefinable something they have. It's just magic. But the cliche is true. Many a genius sits undiscovered because they never tried or, even worse, were fooled by their talent into thinking it was easy and when it wasn't they gave up. And I've seen many, many writers make it who didn't start out with anything special. They write good and wonderful books because they worked hard and were determined.

Bonny: Usually, I can tell that one critiquer just didn't get it or that it won't work for this story. But, often I'll try both. I'll take out the "overdescription" that one critiquer complained about. See what that's like. Then put in more descriptoion that the other critiquer complained about. It's hard to sort it out. A lot of it is experience.

Jan: Wow, you answered a lot of questions tonight...and answered them really well. I know you gave me quite a bit to think about. Thank you so much! I really enjoyed chatting with you.

Bonny: Great questions. It was really fun. Thank you all so much!