Jan is Jan Fields, moderator of this interview/workshop, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked of our speaker.

Jan: I'm glad you've found your way to this transcript of a closed chat with Eve Heidi Bine-Stock of E&E Publishing. As the author of a series of books on the structure and writing of picture books, Eve Heidi has graciously answered a score of questions sent in by enews readers. Thank you so much, Eve Heidi! And I'm going to jump us right into the questions.

Eve Heidi: I am not a lawyer, but my understanding of plagiarism is when you copy the words used by a writer. One cannot copyright an *idea* -- one can only copyright the way in which the idea is written. Therefore, if the *idea* is similar to one you remember from your childhood, I would think it would be okay to go ahead and write your own version of the idea, as long as you don't copy scenes or words from the original work. I have some other ideas to suggest, since you are not sure if you read the book as a child: go to a writers' group chat or board and tell the other writers that you are trying to remember the title of the book you read as a child, give them the basic plot or scenes or characters, and see if anyone else remembers the book and can give you the title of it. A great place to do this is on www.abebooks.com; they have an option on the right side of the homepage called "BookSleuth" that is especially designed to help people find the title/author of books for which they remember only the plot, some characters, scenes, etc. Also, since the story is so vivid in your mind, I would sit down and write the story in order to get it out of your system -- then go on to write another book that you know for sure is your own original idea.

Eve Heidi: There is no hard-and-fast rule. Third person is most common and easier for the beginning writer to master; however, there are great books such as Alexander and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day by Judith Viorst, and The True Story of the Three Little Pigs by Jon Scieszka, that are written in first person. So it depends totally on the story you want to write. One word of caution, though: when writing in the first person, be very careful to use only those words (vocabulary), grammatical sentence structures and references that the age of your protagonist would actually use in real life. If you use words, grammar and references that are more advanced than that normally used by the age of your protagonist, your story will not be believable. Remember, too, with first person point of view, the narrator can relate only what he can see, hear, taste, smell, feel and think. We learn about the other characters in the story through the narrator’s direct observations and through dialogue. With first person, the narrator has to be present in all of the scenes; he cannot tell us what is happening unless he witnesses it.

Eve Heidi: You can do a storyboard of your book. That will help you get a sense for it, and see if it fits into a 24- or 32-page format. However, you are really asking a deeper, more important question: how do you determine if you have structured your picture book properly? If the story has the correct structure, it will automatically have the "correct" number of scenes. The best advice I can give is to read Volume I of How to Write a Children's Picture Book. It analyzes the structure common to enduringly popular children's picture storybooks. There is also a chapter which guides you step-by-step through planning and writing your own picture storybook. I would also suggest reading Volume II of How to Write a Children's Picture Book. Besides other things, it talks about storytelling strategies, using masterworks in the field as examples. It addresses such questions as: should I start my story with a Problem first; or start first with the protagonist's character trait; or give background to the story first, before the problems begin.

Eve Heidi: The best way to find this out is to refer to Book Markets for Children's Writers 2008, edited by Marni McNiff and published by Writer's Institute Publications. You can go to http://www.writersbookstore.com/Annual_Market_Directories.htm to order a copy. This book covers both non-fiction and fiction for all ages of children, and all types, subjects and genres of books. It is an indispensible guide.

Eve Heidi: I am not an expert in non-fiction picture books. I would refer you to the submission guidelines of the publisher(s) you are interested in targeting. Their guidelines are often available on their Websites. The book I mentioned above, Book Markets for Children's Writers 2008, gives the Website addresses for publishers.

Jan: Now we have a series of questions asking similar things so we'll group them together and see what the answer is...

Eve Heidi: Everything you have read about *not* sending illustrations with the manuscript is true. Publishers like to choose their own illustrators. Unless you are a professional illustrator who also writes children's picture books, I do not recommend sending any pictures or sketches of artwork. Send only the manuscript in standard manuscript format, *without* notations in the ms regarding illustrations. The 2007 edition of the Book Markets for Children's Writers shows the standard manuscript format; I imagine that the 2008 edition does, also. Having said all that, the rare exception regarding notations would be the case of a picture book that is made up entirely of interjections; for example:

Eve Heidi: My advice is to write the very best manuscript that you can, with a story that can stand on its own. Try reading it aloud, as though you were sitting in front of a group of children at story hour in the library. (You don't have to actually go to story hour; you can read aloud to yourself at home.) Make sure that it is easy to read, that it flows, that you don't stumble over words due to an ill-written turn of phrase. If the story/manscript awakens in you mental images, you are on the right track, and an illustrator will have no problems illustrating the book. You are likely to find, as I have, that the illustrators are so creative and have such great imagination and talent, that they create images that are far better than anything you would think of, yourself. Also, to answer one of Michelle's questions, the manuscript is *not* edited down once the illustrator gets involved. If a publisher accepts your manuscript and wants it edited, the editor will work with you to create a manuscript that can stand on its own, and is the very best story that it can be. Only once that work is done, is an illustrator signed on to the project. To answer one of Rebecca's questions, it is usually the case that the author does not see the pictures until they are done. To the best of my knowledge, publishers do not want the author telling the illustrator what to do. That, if anything, is the publisher's (or art director's) job.

Eve Heidi: These books were written and illustrated by established writers who also illustrate. I can add another picture book that strongly uses illustrations to tell the story: No, David! Again, this was done by a professional writer/illustrator. I do not know the history of how the editors worked with these particular writer/illustrators to get the book accepted. I, as a publisher, would consider a manuscript from a professional writer/illustrator that had sketches of the proposed artwork. But if you are not a professional illustrator, then the story must stand on its own. I had a case where an illustrator sent a manuscript together with the illustrations; we didn't like the story at all, but the illustrations were great and we contracted with him to illustrate a book that another author had written. On the flip side, if a publisher likes the story but not the illustrations, then I, as a publisher, would feel a bit queasy about telling the writer/illustrator that we want to use the story but not the illustrations. For a case like this, to make it easier on the publisher, the cover letter should say that the professional writer/illustrator would be willing to have the book illustrated by another artist.

Eve Heidi: There is a great deal of leeway, as you can see by comparing No, David! (very few words) with, say, Sylvester and the Magic Pebble (many more words). Word length can range anywhere from, say, 50 to 300, for the youngest child, to 1,000 for the 4-8 age range. Average would be about 500/600 words. Your best bet would be to check the publisher's submission guidelines to see what they are looking for. I, personally, would be less concerned about the actual word count, and more concerned that your story has the proper structure (I analyze structure in Volume I of the series mentioned above). And do a storyboard of your story (for yourself, not to send to the publisher) to make sure that it fits into the 24- or 32-page format and that it has "page-turners."

Eve Heidi: Both are successful. For example, in Leo the Late Bloomer, Leo is afraid (as is his father), that Leo will never bloom. Where the Wild Things Are is fantasy, combined with a deep need to be where he is loved best of all; if he has fears about being loved, his mother has reassured him by leaving supper for him. Harold and the Purple Crayon is fantasy, but ends with Harold back in his own, reassuring room. In Harry the Dirty Dog, Harry lives his fantasy of having fun -- and getting unrecognizably dirty in the process -- and ends with the reassurance that his family finally recognizes him and is happy he is home. What I have been doing here is taking a look at the titles of books that I have analyzed in my series, and as I am writing this answer to you now, I can see that even fantasies have an element of fear in them where the character needs reassurance at the end. The characters may go off and fulfill their fantasies, but then they want reassurance that they are accepted for who they are, or reassurance that they can return to the comfort and love of their own home.

Eve Heidi: The only difference is that ebooks are not limited to the standard 24- and 32-page format that print books are limited to.

Eve Heidi: Ebooks, in my opinion, are going nowhere. They sell in miniscule amounts. Parents much prefer to buy print books.

Eve Heidi: Read, read, read the best children's picture books and analyze them for why they work. If you need help learning how to analyze a book, the best advice I can give you is to read the first volume in my How to Write... series. Volume I discusses the common structure used by enduringly popular children's picture storybooks, and has a chapter that gives step-by-step instructions for planning and writing your own picture storybook. And, of course, I believe you'll find something helpful in every volume.

Eve Heidi: I write children's books (fiction) because I write for the child inside myself. And picture books because I have a visual imagination -- I think in pictures. At one point, I worked in Hollywood developing screenplays for movies; later, I wrote award-winning multimedia edutainment CDs for children; and all along the way, I have written children's picture books. I also write how-to books for adults and have extensive experience in that genre.

Eve Heidi: Send it in regular manuscript format, not storyboard form. The storyboard is a useful tool when you are writing your book to make sure the story fits the limitation of the 24- or 32-page format, and to make sure your text creates "page-turners."

Eve Heidi: I *do* think that a manuscript is more likely to be rejected by an editor if the main character is not a child.

Eve Heidi: It sounds like you are *definitely* on the right track.

Eve Heidi: No, these character names are not too trite. They are easy for children to understand.

Eve Heidi: My advice is not to make up action just for the sake of action; the action should be integral to your story. You could have a lot of "action," and the story could still become tedious. I think you need to go back to the basics and be sure that the *structure* of your story is correct. If the structure of the story is correct, you will have just the right amount of action that is integral to the story. In Volume I of my series, How to Write a Children's Picture Book, I go into great detail about the structure of picture books, using masterworks in the field as examples. Volume II: Word, Sentence, Scene, Story, discusses, among other things, storytelling strategies as seen in enduringly popular picture storybooks.

Eve Heidi: Publishers prefer to choose their own illustrators. Don't bother trying to find an illustrator, yourself.

Eve Heidi: I am not an expert in magazine stories, but I think I can point you in the right direction. Writer's Institute Publications has a book called Best of the Children's Market, which has the best stories from the best children's magazines. You can order the book from this Website. I would suggest that you study the stories in that book, and then read lots and lots of picture books. What differences do you see. If you're still stuck -- you can find more about the structure of picture books in my series. I specifically analyze different picture books. Doing all of that should give you a good idea of how a picture book and a magazine story are the same, and how they differ.

Eve Heidi: First let me address the inspiration/imagination question. I like to clear my mind and get back into the childlike state of innocence and wonder, and write the book for both the child inside me, and, at the same time, satisfy the adult that I am today. Nancy I. Sanders is writing a book called Yes! You Can Learn How to Write Children's Books, Get Them Published, and Build a Successful Writing Career. In it, she discusses techniques for generating good ideas. The book will be published in 2009 by E&E Publishing and will be available on Amazon.com. As far as designing the plot of a picture book, again, the best way it to study the masterworks in the field -- the way I did it in my series. Volume One has a chapter which takes you step-by-step through planning the plot of your own story and writing the complete manuscript. If you write a story that you would like E&E Publishing to consider publishing, you can email it to EandEGroup@EandEGroup.com. Either attach the manuscript as a Word document, or cut and paste the text into the body of the email.

Eve Heidi: I am not an expert on early chapter books, but I have been told that the structure discussed in Volume I of my series has helped readers who are working on works longer than the picture book. As far as a good source for learning how to write early chapter books, Nancy I. Sanders's book (mentioned above) includes discussion of early chapter books. As for a Volume IV of the series How to Write a Children's Picture Book, yes, it is being written now; it is about Voice, Point of View and Character in children's picture storybooks. It will be useful to you when writing early chapter books, as well. It will be published late 2008/early 2009.

Eve Heidi: My recommendation is not to set a book in the 1950s or so. Children read (or are read to) in order to learn about their world -- which is today's world. Children have no other point of reference and, in my opinion, would not understand that the book is set back in time. It seems to me that you have a story in mind that you need to write for yourself, based on your memories of being a child in the 1950s, so I would say that you should go ahead and write it to get it out of your system; the writing will be good practice, in any event. The only exception that I can think of regarding setting a book back in time would be fairytales set in, say, the Middle Ages; the pictures will clearly show dress and settings that are foreign to the child; that is, they do not represent the world as he knows it today and he will understand this. Of course, this is just my own, personal opinion and another publisher may feel differently. Book Markets for Children's Writers does list "Historical Fiction" as a category, so I would suggest that you check out the publishers there that say they are interested in "Historical Fiction." Good luck to you!

Eve Heidi: Oh, boy, the answer to this involves many technical and financial considerations. First, the publisher is usually limited to 32 pages, including front and back matter. So the text has to fit the pages, with appropriate page-turners, in the appropriate font size for the age of the child. As far as page size goes, the printer often charges different prices according to the page size, since some sizes have a lot of "waste" when trimming the book for the final trim size. Also, if the illustrations are done by a well-known artist and the publisher thinks that she can make a good deal of money from the book, she is more apt to invest more in the book and make it a larger trim size (page size). There are other technical matters involved: for example, we at E&E tend to use an 8.5" x 8.5" trim size because with this trim size, the text and pictures can be centered in the middle of the page. With other trim sizes, even-numbered pages have to be offset one way, and odd-numbered pages have to be offset another way, to allow proper space for the gutter. It is much easier for us to center all the text and images on an 8.5" x 8.5" page size. Though, to be honest, larger publishers probably do not take this into account. As for color, most publishers today use 4-color artwork; it's not like the black & white pictures that you see in Alexander and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day. I hope that I have answered your question.

Eve Heidi: A "beat" is a unit of action & reaction in a story. (Character "A" says or does something, and character "B" reacts.) A series of "beats" make up a scene. Let's look at "Spring" from Frog and Toad Are Friends for an example of how "beats" may be joined together to build a scene. Take the single Story Event, the "Toad refuses to wake up" scene. This scene is built around six "beats," six distinctively different behaviors, six clear changes of action-reaction:

1. Frog trying from outside to wake up Toad
2. Frog entering Toad's house and finding Toad in bed
3. Frog pushing Toad out of bed and onto the front porch
4. Frog trying to convince Toad of the beauties of April
5. Toad going back to bed
6. Toad reasoning with Frog and telling him to wake him at "half past May"

Eve Heidi: This sounds like a very interesting project. I don't know if other publishers use this number of pages for the PBs, but if there's one, there's likely to be more than one. What I would suggest is that you study the markets in Book Markets for Children's Writers 2008, edited by Marni McNiff and published by Writer's Institute Publications. You can go to http://www.writersbookstore.com/Annual_Market_Directories.htm to order a copy. This book gives the Website addresses of publishers, many of whom post their submission guidelines on their Websites.

Eve Heidi: But in addition to that, I would suggest that you write to publishers that publish historical biography picture books for 8-12 year-olds, and send them a sample chapter or two with an outline of the rest of the book, and a smashing cover letter that says the book is currently slated to be 78 pages long, but that you are willing to edit the book to suit the specific needs of the publisher.

Eve Heidi: Remember to point out in your cover letter what makes your book unique in its field. I am sure that this approach will generate interest. Also, I wouldn't give up entirely on your original publisher. Even though they *say* they are not taking on new writers, I would write to the Publisher (not the Submissions Editor) and say that you have specifically tailored your book for their needs. Send the sample chapter(s), outline, cover letter, as discussed above. If you make a compelling argument to the Publisher, they might just bend their "rules" and consider your book. To get the name of the Publisher, visit the Website of the publishing company, call the number listed, and say you want to write a letter to the Publisher and ask for her name. Be sure to ask for the correct spelling! If they ask you whether you want to send a manuscript, just say no, you just want to write a letter to the Publisher. Otherwise, they'll just direct you to the Submissions Editor, or tell you that they are not accepting new submissions. Good luck to you! I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you. Please let me know how things work out. My email address is EandEGroup@EandEGroup.com.