"From Story to Pictures: Children’s Book Illustration" with Ellen Beier

Mel is Mel Boring, moderator of this interview with Ellen Beier and web editor of the ICL Web Site.

Mel: Hello, and WELCOME to the Guest Chat! In case you wonder, as I did, Ellen Beier tells me her last name is pronounced BUY-er. Ellen Beier is well known for her superb work in illustrating children's books. Among those are two Mrs. Peachtree books by Erica Silverman, The Blue Hill Meadows, by Cynthia Rylant, The Promise Quilt by Candice F. Ransom and Anne of Green Gables, retold by M. C. Helldorfer. You may have also seen Ellen Beier's most recently illustrated books in the Pets to the Rescue series by Andrew Clements, published by

Ellen: Hi Mel! I am happy to be here

Mel: Ellen, who is the one person who FIRST got you started in illustrating?

Ellen: My grandmother was a painter and sculptor in New York, and she studied with artists like Chaim Gross and others, and then taught art in elementary schools. She had plenty of art supplies, so she set me up on a telephone book in her study, and I drew and drew all day, and at the beach, where we sketched the unsuspecting bathers. I could smell the turpentine all day in her room where I was surrounded by her paintings.

Mel: That's a GREAT and memorable story! Have other members of your family also been supportive of your illustration career?

Ellen: Yes, although my parents thought I would be an architect because when I was a child I drew houses, as well as people, all day. And so after high school I went to Architecture School at Cornell, for a few years until I realized I just wanted to draw and paint, not design buildings!

Mel: You know, I'm thinking about that GREAT story about your grandmother and her influence, and it seems just waiting to be written AND illustrated! Have you thought about doing that? I mean BOTH writing and illustrating!

Ellen: Hmmm, good idea! Yes, I have started writing lately, although, with my first attempts I have suddenly learned the meaning of the word "block" as in "Writer's Block" (or rather procrastination), as I never had this problem with illustration (thank goodness!)

Mel: Here is a related question that was pre-submitted, Ellen:

Ellen: So far, I have been hooked up, but thankfully, with some excellent writers.

Mel: What do you do when you get a manuscript?

Ellen: The first thing I do is read the manuscript many, many times, and then I read it some more. The next thing is: RESEARCH, if it is historical, or I can go right to thumbnail sketches.

Mel: Is the story already divided into page breaks?

Ellen: I break the story down into the number of pages, then do very small "thumbnail" sketches of each page as a spread, with the text just indicated by lines, kind of like a storyboard for movies. This gives a general idea of the pace of the book, which pictures are close-up and which are distance, etc.

Mel: Ellen, how big are "thumbnails," as small as a thumbnail actually, or is that just an expression?

Ellen: Well, 1½ by 2 inches, may be a very large thumbnail, a thumbnail of a yeti.

Mel: LOVE it! Do you have contact with the author?

Ellen: Usually there is no contact with the author until the project is finished, when they (hopefully) write to say how happy they are with the book. But in several cases I was fortunate to have contact with authors; the most notable was Cynthia Rylant for The Blue Hill Meadows, because I became pregnant with my son while I was working on the project and when she heard, she wrote to me, and then we corresponded for a few years.

Mel: Cynthia Rylant is a very NOTEABLE author! That's rather surprising to a writer, that you don’t have contact with the authors, usually. But writers probably think the illustrator needs lots of "direction" for their story, is that right? Or do most authors just "turn you loose" to do what you feel is best?

Ellen: Well, the authors don't turn you loose, the editors do. Although different editors have different ways of working, and it depends on whether it is a picture book or an early reader, which is more structured and has more "rules" and more editorial input.

Mel: Is that because the TEXT must be more "controlled"?

Ellen: Yes, the text is Very controlled for early readers, and also the illustrations are sometimes instructed to "exactly match the text," meaning that everything in the text should show up in the pictures. Although, not every editor follows these same guidelines.

Mel: So then, illustrating a PICTURE BOOK, by comparison, must give you a lot more freedom, doesn’t it?

Ellen: Yes, often a picture book involves reading the manuscript, and then just going for it—

Mel: You know, Ellen, that "reading the manuscript and then just going for it" probably gives most AUTHORS the willies, since WRITING doesn't seem to be ABOUT that much freedom. Do you think illustrators have a lot more freedom, are freer from Writer's Block?

Ellen: I suppose, yes in a way, although overall the illustrator is always the LAST person to get the manuscript, after it has been accepted by the publisher, and edited.

Mel: Do you mean that a book is kind of "cut and dried" at that late point?

Ellen: No—just that the illustrator is working off of the vision or story of the writer, not making it up his/herself.

Mel: I see--thanks! Does the editor provide you with research material?

Ellen: Yes sometimes, especially for an historical story or one with an unusual subject, or for instance, my ready-to-read series Pets to the Rescue," was based on true stories, so I received some photos of the actual people (and pets!) to whom these stories referred. One man from the Pets series said "Be sure to make me really handsome!" Hahaha.

Mel: How FUN is that!

Ellen: Well I made him half-bald, I hope he's happy!

Mel: How do you know about page size and number of pages, etc.?

Ellen: Number of pages is always set by the publisher, and based on financial/ production concerns. But page size is often determined by the artist or suggested by the editor and then discussed. And some books call for particular page sizes or shapes, which are discussed ahead of time, by artist and editor. Usually these things are not presented as a done-deal, which is nice for artist, having that input.

Mel: Nancy presubmitted this question also:

Ellen: Well, yes to the second part of that question. But yes again, to the first part. I once did sketches for a picture book that I really loved for a major publisher who was bought by another major publisher (as happens a lot nowadays) and the editors all got switched around, so this manuscript fell through the cracks and was dropped from the list later on. Years later, I contacted the writer and we worked on the project some more and resubmitted it to someone else, and they held onto it a long time but did not buy it. I am not sure where it stands right now.

Mel: Ellen, how are you first contacted by an editor?

Ellen: Usually by phone in the "old" days, nowadays by e-mail.

Ellen: For picture books it is usually advance against royalties unless it is a very small publisher. For early readers it is the same, and for some chapter books. For educational books it is usually flat rate.

Ellen: Well, it is different in that the editor comes to the illustrator, rather than vice-versa! Yes, now that I am writing, I can appreciate the fact that an illustrator has his/her deadlines, etc., all laid out at the outset, and knows that she has a contract in hand, etc. It gives the project more form, for me anyway. Plus the security of having that contract and the advance, makes it easier to be creative, I think!

Mel: Nancy also presubmitted this question:

Ellen: Yes, I was given manuscripts several times which either I didn't think were well-written or I thought the material was not quite right, so I turned them down.

Ellen: Do you mean like drawing characters, or continuing the style of someone who is no longer illustrating?

Ellen: No I have not done that.

Mel: Related to that question, Ellen, with a book like Anne of Green Gables, would you look at OTHER illustrations that might've been done for that story?

Ellen: Actually, for Anne of Green Gables, I mostly kept watching the TV series over and over and used it also for research for clothes and the houses, etc.

Mel: What a treat, watching TV for research!

Ellen: I was actually aware of some of the covers for Anne, but the book I did was considered the first picture book of that story (adaptation).

Ellen: Yes, I am always aware of what age level the story is probably written for, especially with early readers.

Ellen: You'd be best to submit your manuscript alone, and if it were to get accepted, you could mention your son's work to the editor in conversation. But only if you think it is professional level. Also encourage your son to submit his work separately.

Mel: That sounds like a VERY reasonable approach!

Ellen: The writer does not have to find an illustrator! The editor does that. The writer just has to submit the best manuscript that he/she can, and leave it up to the editor to find the illustrator.

Mel: You mentioned that you turn down some books. How, specifically, do you decide which books to illustrate, then, Ellen?

Ellen: Most of the manuscripts I have been sent have been really great! So when I get one which I think is not that great, well, if it really bothers me I figure I will have a terrible time getting through the project so I can't go ahead with it.

Mel: Of the MANY insights you've given us tonight, one is that the ILLUSTRATOR is "at the end of the line" in the making of a book. It's already been accepted and edited by the time you get it. Doesn't that make it ESPECIALLY hard to turn one down?

Ellen: Hmmm—well, the few that I turned down seemed to either have terrible omissions in terms of historical facts, or just not the kind of book I like to read, I guess. I like historically accurate books, and I really like to do research myself (as I said already!) so when something seems historically inaccurate, I do wonder how it did get through the whole editing process. But rather than go back to the editor with my opinion. I just turn it down.

Mel: This question was also presubmitted by Nancy in Switzerland (where people are sleeping right now!):

Ellen: Hmmm, oh that would be fun, but usually it does not happen. One exception: When I was painting the first Mrs. Peachtree book, Mrs. Peachtree and the Eighth Avenue Cat, I had done all the pages, but I had left ALL her dresses blank (white) because I could not figure out her taste in clothes! So I called the editor (in New York) and I was in Germany at the time. It was late at night, and she called the author in California. And a few minutes later the editor in NY called me back with a funny, charming paragraph of words, which she said the author said described Mrs. Peachtree distinctly! And I was able to use that to finish painting the dresses (in some wild patterns, I may add, so you can imagine the words, "quirky, but sophisticated," and on and on).

Mel: What a truly FUNNY story, Ellen! Did you tell me you had "modeled" Mrs. Peachtree after your beloved grandmother who first taught you art, Ellen?

Ellen: Yes, I based Mrs. Peachtree's looks on my grandmother, the braids curled up around the head, the face. But my grandmother would NEVER own a cat, though her personality was very like Mrs. P's. Also the cat is modeled after a cat I had several years before. The book was in homage to them both.

Mel: It sounds like, as with WRITERS, the real life of an ILLUSTRATOR often goes into their work!

Ellen: Yes, definitely. Many, or maybe all, characters have some connection to real people, and many other things, such as settings, and just things I have around the house find their way into the illustrations. Sometimes deliberately, sometimes not.

Mel: Ellen, which is your favorite book that you illustrated?

Ellen: My first book, the one I was just speaking about, Mrs. Peachtree and the Eighth Avenue Cat, is probably my real favorite, but another fave is The Blue Hill Meadows.

Mel: About how LONG does it take to illustrate a book?

Ellen: The sketch stage can be as short as a few weeks, and the painting stage can take as long as nine months. Then, reading the story and doing the research can also take many weeks at the beginning.

Mel: What is the very FIRST step in illustrating a book?

Ellen: After reading the manuscript, I do the thumbnails for the whole book, and then the thumbnails go to the editor for corrections.

Mel: What, specifically, is a thumbnail layout? Why do you make one?

Ellen: The thumbnail layout shows the "spreads" or open pages, for each of the pages in the book, on a couple of sheets of paper, from page 1 to page 32, or whatever the last page is. So the whole book can be seen at once. The reason I do thumbnails and submit at that stage is because it is always easier to make changes at that early stage than later, when so much work and time has gone into the finer details of finished sketches.

Mel: What does the editor do with your thumbnail layout?

Ellen: The editor makes little notes all over the layout, sometimes right in the margins and sometimes on post-its. The illustrator makes changes according to the notes, unless sometimes I have a totally different opinion, and then we discuss it until one of us gives in. Hahahaha.

Mel: A sense of HUMOR must help an illustrator, too!

Ellen: Definitely. It is a hard business, especially the business end, as writers know, and can be lonely as well! Gotta have a sense of humor about it.

Ellen: The pencil sketch comes after the thumbnail corrections have been made. The finals are usually done in paint. Although sometimes, for black and white chapter books for instance, pencil can be used. But you must be careful because sometimes pencil does not reproduce so well as pen and ink or a wash.

Mel: You mentioned being strong on research, Ellen. How do you do research for a children's book?

Ellen: I go to the library mostly, and come home with HUGE piles of books, which I renew over and over. But sometimes these days I use the Internet too, not as much, though (I love the library!). I also have bookcases full of my own books, on subjects such as costumes from the 15th to 18th century or farm life in England in the middle ages, things like that.

Ellen: I think an illustrator would only do that if he/she is submitting a manuscript. For illustrations the illustrator would submit a packet of samples (copies of) illustrations, maybe 10-12, or a homemade promotional piece, like a brochure. But samples are most common.

Ellen: Oh, no, not necessarily. Though I have heard in most cases books are contracted mostly on the strength of the manuscript. Though sometimes you can see cases where you may think that did not happen!

Mel: I agree!

Ellen: An interesting challenge was The Blue Hill Meadows, because we decided, and I mean I was actually given the chance to have input, that the whole story would be told without actually showing the characters, but just implying that they were there.

Mel: VERY interesting!

Ellen: So you see shoes, objects from around the house, etc., but only one picture where you see the young boy running with his dog. I actually enjoyed that process very much.

Ellen: Well, you never know how you will do once the royalties come in, that is, after the advance has been matched in book sales. But I suppose an advance could range from several thousand dollars to ten thousand dollars, to many thousands more, if you are successful. By successful, I mean like Madonna. Not that she did the illustrations, but you get my drift.

Mel: YES!

Ellen: Is this true? Well, just give them my telephone number, and send them links to where I have my work posted on the Internet.

Mel: Ellen’s work and contact address and telephone number are posted on the Internet at:

Ellen: If I can identify with the characters' predicament, that is really the key.

Ellen: I do not think so, however, I don't know if the authors I have illustrated books for have taught there—I know them for a while, but I don't know all the work they do. Though sometimes we correspond by e-mail.

Mel: What kind of changes might you make to your initial sketches?

Ellen: I make whatever changes the editor tells me to! Unless of course it doesn't make sense to me, and then I protest. Or if it is a question of research, then I send my research to the editor.

Mel: What kind of paper do you sketch on?

Ellen: I sketch on regular tracing paper, and kind of piece the pieces together from all the different areas of research, till I have the image I want. I suppose some people do this on the computer now, which I have done sometimes, but I prefer working at my drawing table using old-fashioned tape and paper.

Mel: How big are your final sketches?

Ellen: Final sketches are the same size as the finished illustrations, which are the same size as the book, usually.

Ellen: After architecture school I studied at a variety of art schools. I was travelling a lot, and lived in London for awhile. I spent a lot of time at the museums there, and then returned to the US to get a degree in Fine Art at Cal College of Arts & Crafts. Then later I took some classes at the Academy of Art in San Francisco, but mostly I would say I have learned on the job and from other artists.

Mel: Ellen, you mentioned being heavily influenced by Arthur Rackham. What about his art most "spoke to you"?

Ellen: I really loved his interpretations of fantasy, and story. Plus his pen work is exquisite, so expressive and flawless.

Mel: For someone (like me) who is not familiar with Rackham, what one book of his would you recommend looking at?

Ellen: Peter Pan In Kensington Gardens. It will change your life!

Mel: I will find that book—and thanks!

Ellen: When I was living in London, believe it or not, someone actually tossed a children's book at me and said, "You could do that!" Hahaha. Then I started paying attention to the art in books, such as an edition of Alice in Wonderland that a friend had, and the Rackham books, and I just started sketching images of children's classics as I read them.

Mel: How do you transfer sketches to paper for the final paintings?

Ellen: I use a light box, laying the tracing paper sketch on the lightbox, and the watercolor paper over it and then tracing the lines through to the watercolor paper.

Mel: What media do you use to do your final paintings?

Ellen: I have usually used watercolor, sometimes with a bit of liquid acrylic for more dense color. But this year I have been experimenting with using regular acrylics only.

Mel: How do you decide which colors to use?

Ellen: The colors are often determined by the type of book, say, an historical book may call for more muted colors, a contemporary subject, more bright colors.

Ellen: I think it is difficult to reproduce watercolors well, which is why I have been trying to paint with denser medium—or medium with denser pigment I should say. But every now and then a publisher does a good job with watercolor, so you shouldn't rule it out. I think it depends a lot on the person who is doing the color work at the proofing stage, and sometimes it is hard to get a good match with the original colors.

Ellen: Well, funny enough, one of the Pets to the Rescue series, Brave Norman, which I did recently, was purchased by Scholastic Bookfair/Bookclub after it just won an award and it has sold many, many copies, especially because of the fair, and the fact that kids really like books about pets, and dogs.

Mel: For SURE!

Ellen: It depends on what I have going. I prefer to work on only one at a time, but often projects overlap.

Ellen: The most challenging aspect, well, I would say there are two. One is: promotion. You must be ready to continue to promote yourself even after one or more of your books has been a big success! You probably hear that over and over again. The other big challenge I find is that being an illustrator can be very isolating, just like writing, so I recommend finding other illustrators to correspond with, or even meet with if there are others in your area. You won't believe how many challenging tasks can be much more easily met when you share your experiences with others. I often correspond with other illustrators via e-mail and lists and it is amazing how many times we compare some of our earlier experiences and say, "Oh, wow, THAT happened to me too!" It helps to know how to make the most of different situations when you are not so isolated.

Mel: How do YOU promote yourself, Ellen?

Mel: How do you decide how to illustrate the characters in a story?

Ellen: It comes directly from the manuscript, all clues are right there. And sometimes I research the type of clothes, etc. I try to get into the characters' heads.

Mel: How do you paint as many as 40 paintings at once?

Ellen: I mount all the watercolor paper on boards (stapling after stretching the paper), and then start painting one thing, say, the sky colors, or the ground colors, and then the flesh tones, or maybe a piece of clothing, so there is the consistency throughout the book. If I just finish one piece, then there isn't so much motivation to keep going for the length of the whole book. So each page has a little paint on it to get started. And then I just add to each one, and I have plenty of racks in my studio to hold lots of boards!

Ellen: I did a fantasy series with a local writer, but under a different name because it was so different from my children's book work! But that's the only one.

Ellen: Well, I am 39 now of course—hahahaha! No, I was in my mid-30s when I did my first full-length book for a major publisher, but many educational pieces before that.

Ellen: Not professionally—just a few homemade cards.

Mel: Ellen, the last question is mine. I know you've donated a lovely piece of "snowflake art" for the Robert’s Snow for the youth cancer project. Could you tell us more about that project, and how it started?

Ellen: Grace Lin is an illustrator who wrote and illustrated the children’s picture book, Robert’s Snow. She is on the Picturebookartists e-mail list, and unfortunately her husband, Robert, is ill with cancer. The Robert's Snow project is a fundraiser for the Dana-Farber Cancer Institute and the Jimmy Fund, which provide expert, compassionate care to children and adults with cancer while advancing the understanding, diagnosis, treatment, cure, and prevention of cancer and related diseases. And many illustrators have participated by painting snowflakes, which are being exhibited at museums such as the Eric Carle Museum, and auctioned on E-bay. The snowflakes will also be at several other sites.

Mel: Thanks, Ellen! The URL of the Robert’s Snow snowflake auction at eBay is at:

Mel: It seems like our two chat hours fly away even faster with illustrators than writers, Ellen. We are so grateful to you for explaining the process of illustrating children's books, which you are both talented and experienced at. The story of your artistic experience is a happy "book," indeed, and thank you for sharing it with us. You're probably aware that there are many more questions to ask, and lots more of the illustration process that we haven't had time to discuss this evening. Will you please come back again someday and share more of your illustration talent and expertise?

Ellen: Thanks, and yes! Good luck to all the aspiring writers and illustrators here!

Mel: Thursday evening, November 18, we will have a most unusual chat guest about a topic many of you have asked questions about. She is Lin Oliver, Executive Director of the Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators. Some of you have seen Lin at SCBWI conferences, and know what a great wit she is in any presentation. What you may not know about is Lin Oliver's career in writing, such as her collaboration with Fonzie—Henry Winkler of the "Happy Days" TV show—on his books for children. Bring all of your questions about the Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators on the evening of November 18, and you will find Lin Oliver both an informative and entertaining presenter-see you then!

Mel: And WARM THANKS to you again, Ellen Beier, for being with us in the ICL Chat Room this evening! You have opened up doors and windows for both "closet" illustrators like me, and professionals with illustrations to their credit. We so appreciate the suggestions and tips you may even be fully aware of, which you passed along to us tonight. We will all be looking very much forward to the time when we can have you return again, Ellen—thanks!

Ellen: You are most welcome.

Ellen: I enjoyed it, too.

Mel: Goodnight, children's writers AND illustrators!