Mel is Mel Boring, moderator of this interview with Sue Alexander, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site.

Interviews are held every other Thursday evening for two hours, beginning at 9 CANADA/ Atlantic Time, 8 Eastern Time, 7 Central Time, 6 Mountain Time, and 5 Pacific Time.

Mel: Finally, Sue Alexander, we have gotten you into our ICL Chat Room! THANK YOU for coming. I have to share a very personal anecdote with the others. At the 1987 Highlights For Children Summer Conference at Chautauqua, New York, you told us about your Nadia the Willful, and then you read it to us. I have never been more deeply touched by the reading aloud of any book than I was that evening, and I know the others there were too. Sometime this evening, I especially want to ask you about your Nadia the Willful. You have published in so many genres that you are able to offer us a WORLD of information and inspiration. WELCOME to you, Sue!

Sue: Thanks, Mel—Nadia is a special book to me, too.

Mel: Sue, tell us first what things happened in your family of origin to eventually make you a children's writer.

Sue: First, I had to be a reader, and that I got from my mother—I never saw her without a book in her hands, even when she was cooking. Also, as a child I was clumsy and not welcome to play with other kids at recess, so I told stories at recess so I would have company. And I had to write them down so I wouldn't run out of things to tell.

Mel: Do you remember ANY of those stories you told to classmates at recess?

Sue: Not really, but the first few were filled with things I thought were exciting, like runaway horses, prairie fires, bandits and the like.

Mel: Then you know from YOUNG experience JUST what kids like!

Sue: Really, I think that inside I'm seven going on eight.

Mel: There are so MANY genres in which you are SO accomplished. I want us to discuss them all tonight, and first, may we talk about POETRY?

Sue: Poetry scares me. I've written a bit, but I'm never sure if it's poetry.

Mel: Many of us have wanted to write and publish poetry, but we've been told it's almost impossible. Is that true, and what would you advise poets to do?

Sue: Less poetry is published than any other genre. If you look in a bookstore, you won't see much of it, which is why not a lot of it is published. The advice I would give is to really study poetry—the meter, forms, understand what it can do and what it can't do. Read Myra Cohn Livingston's books on writing poetry.

Mel: Why IS less poetry published, since kids LOVE the likes of Shel Silverstein?

Sue: The simple answer is that it doesn't sell all that well—if you're not Shel Silverstein.

Mel: HA! Exactly right!

Sue: I want to say one more thing—publishing is a BUSINESS, not an altruistic gesture, and if a publisher can't make money, they'll go out of business.

Mel: Do you think that most magazine editors welcome poetry submissions?

Sue: Magazines, besides liking to publish poetry because their readers do like it, recognize that it "fills spaces" so that articles aren't left hanging in the middle of white space.

Mel: Here's the first question from a chatster:

Sue: I might—I have, in fact, used verse (I won’t call it poetry) that way in one of the plays in Whatever Happened to Uncle Albert—a book of mystery plays.

Mel: Your recommendation to read Myra Cohn Livingston's books on writing poetry is EXCELLENT—thanks! And I think you also made a VERY GOOD point: We writers think more often about OUR need to make money, but lose sight of the fact that magazine and book publishers MUST make money, too, or go out of business—and that means no business for us writers. Let's talk about writing plays. We have seldom had a playwright here in our chat room, Sue. How did you get into writing plays and why?

Sue: To begin with, I've always loved to pretend and taught my kids to put on plays for my husband and myself. Then, one night, my daughter (who was seven at the time) wanted a play to do with her friend who was staying for dinner, and we couldn't find any plays for two kids in the library. So I wrote them some and they had such a good time performing them that I thought other kids might have a good time with them too.

Mel: Tell us about your book, Small Plays for Special Days. How did it come to be, and what niche does it fill, for teachers, for students, just for young readers?

Sue: Small Plays for Special Days follows Small Plays for You and a Friend and Jim Giblin had asked me to write it. I should tell you that I had to rewrite the entire book twice before he was satisfied with it. I hear from teachers who have used both Small Plays books in ways that I would never have imagined: to help English-as-a-Second-Language kids learn English, to help a shy child gain confidence, to get a child not interested in reading to read—and more.

Mel: What AMAZING use your play books have had! And what an amazing editor Jim Giblin is!

Sue: I agree. Kind and patient and best of all articulate—so he could explain what was wrong and never just rewrite it himself.

Mel: What thoughts and feelings do you generally hold toward an editor when working with them, Sue?

Sue: I want an editor who will communicate. And for the most part, I've had wonderful editors, who, like Jim Giblin, are articulate and recognize that the words are MINE. They make suggestions often by asking questions that point out what doesn't work—a very helpful thing.

Mel: I think that is the FINEST mark of a good editor, that they respect you, and feel the writing is YOURS, after all.

Sue: An editor whom I knew came to Los Angeles looking for writers. She had just changed houses and asked me to write a book of plays for her. I told her that I would if it was all right with Jim Giblin, since I felt that I needed to be loyal to him. But she told Jim that I had agreed to write for her. Jim called me and I explained and he asked me to write another book of plays for him. And because he knew that I loved to read mysteries, he suggested a mystery play book. So I jumped at the chance—forgetting that I had no clue in the world about how to construct a mystery!

Mel: When you write a play, do you think FIRST of a group of characters? Or of a plot that would fit a play? How do you go about starting any play?

Sue: I discovered -- after six months of getting nowhere, that you have to know who done it? How? Why? And how they got caught, before you can even begin. Then you come up with the characters.

Sue: What I like best about writing is being able to live different lives through my words. I can be all my characters and in all sorts of situations. But each and every time, they are all based on some emotion plucked from my childhood.

Mel: A very CREATIVE answer!

Sue: Hmmm. That’s hard to answer. I love picture books, but I also love easy-to-read, and of course I love whatever kind of a book I'm working on when that question is asked. I've never written a book that was just something to write, or the kind of a book that I didn't like.

Sue: Phyllis Whitney—in a book she wrote called The Silver Inkwell. It's the story of a girl who was trying to become a writer. I read it when I was twelve. The writing of stories that I'd done before reading her book was to have company at recess, and then to make things happen the way I wanted them to instead of they way they really did.

Mel: Phyllis has touched LOTS of people and turned them toward writing!

Sue: I think that depends on the age for whom you are writing. If you were writing for Young Adults, I'd say yes. But for younger kids, that would be too sophisticated a technique.

Mel: Sue, I want to turn our discussion to picture books, because I've heard some EXCELLENT guidance in writing them from YOU! What is a picture book, exactly?

Sue: A picture book is a book written for kids from three to eight—and it's not something for them to read themselves. It’s a sharing experience between the adult reader and the child listener. A "true" picture book has 2/3 or 3/4 of every page filled with illustration. A picture story book has more text, but also illustration on each page -- though not as large. These are also longer than true picture books. Tall tales, folk tales, are picture story books, while books like Hello Toes! Hello Feet! by Ann Whitford Paul are true picture books. A picture book can be nonfiction too.

Mel: So books about Paul Bunyan, for example, and some of Sid Fleischman's folk tales might be picture story books?

Sue: There are some Paul Bunyan stories that have been made into picture books, too, rather than in simply a compilation. Sid Fleischman's farmer (Good grief—I can't remember his name!) with all those children whose names he runs together have been picture book stories.

Mel: The farmer in Fleischman's books, is he McBroom?

Sue: Yes, thank you!

Mel: Are there ages other than three to eight that picture books have been written for?

Sue: Usually they are for children age 3 through 8, but there are some toddler books and a few "infant" books. The latter are board books showing other babies, or animals. Toddler books are usually concept books—What is big? What is small? What is tall, etc.

Mel: How do picture books differ from magazine stories?

Sue: Hard question. But as far as I've ever been able to figure out, there are two basic differences. First, a magazine story may be an incident—a book is not. A magazine story will have only perhaps one illustration, so the writer has to describe the scene for the reader. In a picture book, unless the description is absolutely necessary for the understanding of the story, you DONT describe. That's the illustrator's job. You need to provide the clues for the illustrator, which are actions—the only thing that can be illustrated. He or she can't illustrate thought or conversation, so the writer has to make sure there is action on every page.

Mel: How did you, Sue, learn how to write picture books?

Sue: Trial and error. But the first thing I did was go to the library and, with the help of the children's librarian, found picture books that children loved. I took them home and typed out the text of each one, and what a shock it was! Separated from the illustration, the first thing I saw was how short they were! Then I saw what the writer had done to help the illustrator without interfering, and that they were indeed structured stories—there was a beginning, middle, a pivotal scene and a resolution.

Mel: You mentioned action on every page in picture books, but what about what I’ve heard Jane Yolen call "quiet books," such as her own Owl Moon?

Sue: Nice, quiet picture books (which most of mine are) don't fare well in publishing houses today. They are looking for what they call "edgy" books, books that break boundaries. However, I will tell you that you can't write to the market because your work won’t ring true. You need to write what means something to YOU—and then see if you can sell it.

Mel: What word lengths are editors wanting today? What is the "going limit" of picture books today, as far as editors are concerned?

Sue: Some easy-to-read book editors count word length, picture book publishers don’t—they count page length. Most picture books are 32 finished pages; that means a manuscript of anywhere from one double-spaced page to about eight double-spaced pages, though tall tales and the like are longer—but not too much longer—I think a maximum of 12 double spaced pages.

Mel: Why did you decide to write for the picture-book age children?

Sue: Because inside I’m seven going on eight. J

Mel: Tell us about your part in starting the Society of Children’s Book Writers and Illustrators, please, Sue.

Sue: Lin Oliver and Steve Mooser started it—I was the first person to join. A few months later I met them and offered to help—famous last words! I've been vitally involved with the organization ever since. I ran the SCBWI office (which was in my home) for twenty years, coordinated the August conference with Lin for 25 years and coordinated the Golden Kite Award for 25 years. Since then, I've backed off to a large extent to give myself more time to write and to travel.

Mel: You have been a VERY important part of SCBWI—but SO MODEST, friend! THANK YOU from all of us children’s writers for helping start it! This question from caq about the LA Times Kids Reading Room:

Sue: The Kids Reading Room is—at present—a half page that runs Monday through Friday and on Sunday. Mary Ellen Walker is the editor (and she is an utter delight—and she's PROMPT!). Stories are geared toward middle-graders. Monday through Friday is one story divided into five parts. Sunday is a separate story. Each episode of the Monday to Friday stories is 300 words; the Sunday story is sometimes a bit longer—350 words. Mostly contemporary stories, some nonfiction—but nonfiction HAS TO BE EXPERT-CHECKED! Sometimes, Mary Ellen is looking for new writers—and other times she is not. Generally, when she is, it's for the Sunday stories.

Sue: I think there's a way to find them, but I won't swear to it. I think when it says "View more," or something like that, if you keep clicking it—it will go back farther and farther. Try it.

Sue: I didn’t find it. They found me. I got a call from the editor when the page was about a month old, and I've been writing for them ever since.

Mel: Is the LA Times Reading Room a paying market, Sue?

Sue: Yes, they pay. (I wouldn't write for them otherwise!) I don’t know what they are offering these days. My contract with them goes back from the time I started.

Mel: We could probably write to Editor Mary Ellen Walker in care of the Los Angeles Times at the newspaper's general address, right?

Sue: Yes, but add Kids Reading Room—so it gets directly to her.

Mel: I have been waiting ALL evening to ask about your Nadia the Willful, Sue! Is it a picture book exactly, or not?

Sue: I'd have to say it's a picture story book. Let me say the one thing I forgot to say about the difference between true picture books and picture story books. It's this: In a true picture book you can't separate the text and the illustrations—it won’t make much sense. In a picture story book, however, the text can stand on its own.

Mel: I've heard you mention writing about things that matter to you. Nadia is such a tender and TOUCHING story. Where did the idea come from, and how did it come to be set in the desert?

Sue: It began when my brother died and neither my father nor my eldest son would let me talk about him. I needed to talk about my brother. But I didn’t know how to tell either of them that, so I did the only thing I knew how to do—I wrote a story. It's set where and when it is because I knew I couldn’t live through the writing if I told it in a contemporary setting. The story was rejected many times over nine years before my editor at Pantheon bought it. After it was published, I gave a copy to my father—and for the first time since my brother had died my father began to talk about him.

Mel: What a MARVELOUS story behind that story! NINE YEARS of rejection of such a stunning story--what stick-to-itiveness you have!!!

Sue: I believed in the story—and so did my agent. That's why we kept submitting it.

Sue: the first things I sold were to magazines. Now, I do an occasional story for a magazine—something that I like but know isn't robust enough for a book.

Sue: Absolutely not! I can't draw a stick figure! Neither can a great many picture book writers!

Sue: Babies or baby animals would be my best guess. And 350 words is a lot of words!

Mel: I'm sure you've taken some people's breath away saying that 350 words is a lot. What would be a more usual word limit for age 2 to 5s?

Sue: Type out a few board books and see—I doubt that any of them has more than 150 words—if that many.

Mel: "WOW!" I heard many writers here say!

Sue: I wrote them for 7-year-olds (like my daughter and her friend), but I've seen them used with 1^st-, 2^nd-, 3^rd- and 4^th- graders, and adults learning English.

Sue: I took a course is using Primary Sources—and I was fascinated with all that the Congressional Library has to offer to writers and teachers.

Sue: Inside me—triggered by something I saw, heard or read—and watching my own children when they were small. For instance, Dear Phoebe began when I figured out why my kids kept asking me what I did while they were at school.

Mel: Sue, tell us about those children of yours—any writers? What do they do for a living?

Sue: No, none of the three—Glenn, Marc or Stacey—is a writer (though Marc really is a good writer). Glenn is a mechanical engineer, Marc works for FEMA (he's on his way to New Orleans as we speak), and Stacey is a stay-at-home mom for my two grandchildren, Megan and Ryan.

Mel: CHEERS for those two grandkids!!!

Sue: I'm not sure I know how to define the difference. For me, verse is more literal. I'd suggest you read Myra Cohn Livingston’s books on writing poetry.

Sue: Hmmm. That depends on what you call "organized." My office is a mess--though I can find anything, but my work habits and my work are organized. I work in the morning, from about 7:00 to 11:30 a.m., then stop to eat something. If my work is going well, I go back to it until my mind turns to jelly. If not, I go do errands, go to the library or bookstore, or just sit and read. A friend of mine, who is my computer "guru" taught me how to organize my work on the computer so that I can find everything.

Mel: HA, I can identify with that office mess! My kids have called my office my "messife." J

Sue: Read. And keep reading. And write and re-write, and re-write some more. I wrote the opening paragraph of Nadia the Willful 50 times before I found the right words.

Mel: Sue Alexander, you have led off September so excellently here! Thank you for the wisdom and practical instruction you have bought us. Though writing picture books is an enormous challenge, you have made that challenge seem more doable to us with your simply clear explanations. And you have covered so many genres with ease and knowledge. It's easy to see why you have been both persistent and successful in publishing for children and young readers. And THANK YOU again from all of us, who have benefited greatly because you helped start an organization that looks out for and instructs and encourages all of us children's writers—the Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators. You just have so MUCH to share. May I ask you now to come back again someday, please, Sue?

Sue: Certainly, I've enjoyed this!

Mel: On September 15 next, we will post an interview with Uri Shulevitz. Uri is a Caldecott Medal-winning children's illustrator and author. He won the Caldecott Medal in 1969 for The Fool of the World and the Flying Ship, a delightsome picture book! On September 15 I will post our questions and Uri Shulevitz's answers at the time of the Thursday evening guest chat (just as we did with Karen Hesse's chat last fall). For Uri Shulevitz, our questions covered the entire scope of both writing and illustrating for children, because Uri does both equally well. In preparation for his September 15 interview, you will want to read Shulevitz's Writing with Pictures: How to Write and Illustrate Children's Books. It contains MARVELOUS coverage of the topic of picture books. Hear from this Caldecott Medal winner September 15!

Mel: THANK YOU again, Sue Alexander! You have a unique ability to explain writing so simply and clearly. Though it isn't simple to successfully write and publish a picture book—as you know so well!—you simplified it for us. We wish you well in ALL your publishing, poetry to plays to picture books to middle-grade novels!

Mel: Goodnight, everyCHILDREN'Swriter!