Rx for Writers

Transcripts

Thursday, July l, l999

MODERATOR is Kristi Holl, Web Editor for the Institute's web site. Kristi is author of more than twenty juvenile novels and has taught writing at the Institute of Children's Literature for l5 years.

Kenny is our guest speaker, Kenny Mann. Kenny has worked as an editor and writer for nonfiction (both juvenile and adult), writes plays, poetry, and film scripts, and has won an Award for Excellence in Educational Journalism (l994). As well as writing nonfiction books for children, Kenny has developed the intensive writing program at Friends World College in Southampton.

Names color coded in green are audience members who had questions.

Interviews are scheduled for Thursday evenings: 8 Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, and 5 Pacific.

MODERATOR: Good evening! Welcome to the Scheduled Chat Room's online interview with Kenny Mann. I'm your moderator, Kristi Holl, and also web editor for this site. Tonight Kenny will be discussing a subject she knows so well: nonfiction. She's written seven nonfiction books on history for younger readers, and two stories for early readers. She's been both a writer and editor of nonfiction, as well as working as a journalist in Kenya, Great Britain and the United States. Let me welcome our guest for the evening, Kenny Mann. Hello, Kenny!

Kenny: Hello, everyone! It's good to be here.

MODERATOR: Kenny, before we get specific about nonfiction, how did you know you wanted to be a writer in the first place?

Kenny: Both my parents were writers. My father wrote many books for veterinarians and my mother wrote articles for architectural magazines, so all I ever saw at home was people slaving away at typewriters. I guess I inherited the skills.

MODERATOR: If you couldn't have been a writer, what would have been your second choice?

Kenny:I always wanted to be an archaeologist. After all, writers of nonfiction do much the same thing... they dig deep!

MODERATOR: What's the best thing AND the worst thing about being a writer?

Kenny:The writer's profession is very lonely. It requires huge discipline - that's the worst thing. But it's also tremendously rewarding, despite the major rejections that must be expected and accepted.

MODERATOR: Do you have children that influence your writing?

Kenny:Yes. I have an 18-year-old daughter, Sophie. I have written a great deal about her, and about our relationship, which has not been easy. I am currently working on a proposal for a book called "Letting Go". It's about living together more as partners than as mother/daughter in the traditional sense.

MODERATOR: I'll certainly be asking you more about that later! Is your daughter interested in writing? Why or why not?

Kenny:Yes. She's a terrific writer. In fact, she just won the award for creative writing at her high school graduation, and it was given by a local book store owner who has been my mentor for several years, so this was a beautiful rounding off and a great irony.

MODERATOR: Do you ever find it difficult to walk the fine line between encouraging your daughter's aptitude and pressuring her? (I find it hard to do!)

Kenny:Yes. It's very hard to know when to push a kid with talent and when to let go. That's why this book is so appropriate. I've learned so much about raising a girl alone. I've also learned about writing through writing about it.

MODERATOR: You have both written and edited nonfiction, including seven nonfiction books on history for younger readers. But you have also published in a wide arrange of genres for all ages. How did you actually get started writing?

Kenny:I started writing when I was 6. My first "book" was about my younger brother Oscar. He was a genius at fixing things and my dad, who is Polish, called him "fingly boy,"a nickname for someone mechanically gifted. So that was the title of my first self-published book. Then, of course, since I was good at it I was encouraged at school and eventually became the editor of the school magazine. I've just kept going ever since.

MODERATOR: What a great story! You didn't start writing books for children until l992. Why did you choose children's books at that time?

Kenny:I arrived in the USA in 1982 and started making a living as a journalist. I soon decided to take a Masters Degree in education because all my skills seemed to lead me in that direction. So I attended Bank Street College of Ed. in Manhattan and became very interested in the whole field of children's education. I also worked for the Bank Street publishing group, which is how I got my foot in the door.

MODERATOR: What was your first children's book, and where did you get your idea?

Kenny:The first one was called I AM NOT AFRAID and it's a Masai folk tale. I researched hundreds of resources, mostly old anthropological books written in German, to find stories that could be "translated" for a western audience. This one is about a younger brother learning courage from an older brother and it is a bestseller, although I absolutely hate the illustrations.

MODERATOR: I know that you won an award for educational journalism in l994. Is your training and education in journalism?

Kenny:Yes. I wasn't officially trained at any school, but I published my first article when I was 16 and worked in England and Germany as a journalist in the press and for radio.

MODERATOR: As soon as you mentioned questions, I got a couple on your comment about the illustrations . . .

Dee: Why do you hate the illustrations?

Kenny: Because they do not represent the Africa that I wish readers to see and understand. They are a Disney-fied version of the real thing, despite my efforts to educate the illustrator with pictures and photographs from the area. It is very sad and ironic that this particular book should be doing so well when for me, it is a cartoon image of what I had hoped to present.

Sasquatch: Doesn't an author have any veto for the illustrations?

Kenny:Very rarely. In this case, I was given a lot of opportunities to intervene and worked directly with the illustrator, but for some reason he was fired halfway through the job. They hired the fellow who does horror comics (Superman, also, I think) and that's what the illustrations look like.

Dee: Is that because the going theme right now is the Disney movies?

Kenny:I think that this has been a theme in America for a very long time. Children and even adults believe that films like the Lion King are real history. They're learning history this way and it's very frightening because the films are so Americanized and inaccurate historically.

Ladybug: Is it possible to be both writer and illustrator? How realistic is that?

Kenny:Some people are both writers and illustrators, but publishers don't really like that too much. They prefer to choose their own illustrators. It's a matter of the editor's interpretation of the text.

MODERATOR: Great questions. Now, Kenny, tell us about being a journalist in Kenya and Great Britain; how did that differ from being a journalist in the US?

Kenny:I was a journalist in Kenya from age 16 to 23. I worked for the East African Standard, which was the main local newspaper at the time. I was left very much to my own devices and wrote mostly about travel, tourism, and music. At that time, Kenya was British - a colony - so the staff were all white. Now, the staff is African, as it should be and the story is quite different. I haven't written for them for years. In England, the writing style differs considerably. It's more formal. In the USA, one is required to impart information in a much more relaxed and chatty style that is more subtle and humorous.

MODERATOR: You've also developed an intensive writing program in Southampton, which specializes in nonfiction. Can you tell us about this program?

Kenny:This is a program I developed for Friends World College, a college run on Quaker principles, with 6 centers around the world. It's not in any way religious, but we take students who are interested in social change. This means that my writing program is based around principles of social activism, community spirit and global understanding.

MODERATOR: That is fascinating . . . Backing up to your answer about the different writing styles, Dee has a question . . .

Dee: Which style of writing do you prefer?

Kenny:It's not really a question of what I prefer, but how I have to adapt to make a living. By now, I can do them all. I think I prefer the British style, but that may be because that's how I was educated.

MODERATOR: You've also been an editor on various nonfiction projects. From an editorial viewpoint, how do you see the role of nonfiction for new writers, especially those trying to break into print?

Kenny:I think that times have changed and there is a far greater interest today in nonfiction than there was a few years ago, especially for younger readers. The market for younger age groups has really opened up, giving new writers more chances for selling their work. Many new writers think they're going to hate nonfiction, but when they get their first crack at it, they find they enjoy it a great deal and some actually prefer it to fiction.

MODERATOR: Two of your books in the AFRICAN KINGDOMS series were social studies Notable Trade Books in l996, a mark of excellence. Do you have any tips, from a writer's or an editor's viewpoint, on things to DO or things to AVOID when writing nonfiction?

Kenny:To do: you have to do great research. It's hard to know how much is enough, and that comes with experience. You also have to know how to translate the research, which can be very academic, into language that lay readers can understand. You don't want to fill a reader's mind with too many facts all at once. You want to weave them into the text as subtly as possible. And of course, when writing a book, you need to divide your information up into suitable chapters, and at the same time, make the material dramatically interesting, which means that it does not always go in chronological order.

MODERATOR: Excellent advice. You talked earlier about a work in progress called LETTING GO. Is your book about control issues?

Kenny:Yes. It's about the relationships between single mothers and their teenage daughters. While much has been written about this issue, the situation in this circumstance is far more extreme than in "normal" families, so the need for each to "let go" of the other is far greater. Mothers may have a harder time doing this - single mothers - than mothers with a full family to take care of.

MODERATOR: You obviously have deep feelings about this subject. In general, where do you get your ideas for your writing? Do you have to feel "passionate" about an idea in order to write about it well?

Kenny: Usually I get excited about my own ideas, and they are often in fiction, not nonfiction. For example, right now I'm developing two screenplays, one for a short film and for a feature film, but I also enjoy the kind of books that I write. I sometimes don't feel particularly passionate about them, but that doesn't mean I do work of lesser quality. It's how I make a living.

MODERATOR: The idea of mixing fiction and nonfiction brings me to our next questions. James Cross Giblin once wrote, "People are sometimes startled when I say that a nonfiction writer is a storyteller." What do you think about that? How can you be a storyteller when you have to stick to the facts?

Kenny: You still have to have the elements of storytelling in nonfiction. You want to keep your readers engrossed and the human mind likes stories. Always has, always will!

Ladybug: What are the titles of these Feature films?

Kenny:I'm not sure that I should reveal them as yet, since they are not yet under contract.

MODERATOR: Sounds fair! Fiction has to contain DRAMA to hold a reader's attention. How does this apply to nonfiction writing?

Kenny:Any human story is full of drama, pathos, agony, joy, etc. After all, fiction is just nonfiction told as a "lie" - an invented arena. Other than science fiction, we have no way of creating anything that isn't taken from real life.

MODERATOR: Can you give an example from your own work, or someone else's about use of DRAMA in nonfiction?

Kenny:I just wrote an article about farmers and farming out here where I live on the East End of Long Island, where farmland is rapidly being bought up by developers. The drama is the story of one particular farmer who refuses to sell his land, even though he has been offered good money for it, and even though his own family wants him to sell it. He will hang on to the end. It's as good as a great film!

MODERATOR: What about CONFLICT? How can this essential fictional element apply to nonfiction writing as well?

Kenny:Same deal... Take the farmer's story. He has to stand up to his wife, his children, his local government. He may lose his wife, who is really fed up with the long hours, and he must choose his priorities and really define his values. Plenty of conflict!

MODERATOR: The next obvious question, then, would be about CONFLICT RESOLUTION. It's critical for a satisfying ending of a short story or novel; how does it apply to nonfiction?

Kenny:You have to bring the story to a close. This may be with facts that lead to the future, or it may be with a question, or it may be with a closing quote from the main character or protagonist that reveals a great deal about the story. Nonfiction does not always have to answer all the questions because I feel that it is sometimes the questions that are more interesting than the answers. But it should lead the reader into new realms of thought and new possibilities.

MODERATOR: That is very true! Except for very short stories and books, SENSORY DESCRIPTION is needed for fiction. Why is it important in nonfiction?

Kenny: For the same reasons as it is necessary in fiction. The readers of nonfiction needs to know where he is, what's the room like, where are we, which town is this and how would I recognize it if I drove through, who is this person, what characteristics of theirs will help me to recognize him or her, or at least to identify with them in my mind, what is the atmosphere that surrounds this story happy, gloomy, ominous, etc.)

MODERATOR: Do you have an example in your own work showing SENSORY DESCRIPTION?

Kenny:I can't think of one off the top of my head, but readers of my books will find them all over the place. However, in historical nonfiction, which is what I write, one must be careful not to invent scenarios. You can't describe something unless you were there. But you can use someone else's description, in which case you quote it. In earlier years, nonfiction writers used to invent dialogue and scenes, and that is now seen as unethical and inaccurate.

Sasquatch: Have you written any biographies? If so, how would you rate their difficulty in comparison with other nonfiction?

Kenny:I haven't written biographies, but I've written hundreds of feature articles about people, and they are quite difficult. The secret is to capture the person whom you are writing about and not to insert too much of you, the author, so that readers feel they are talking to the subject (or at least looking through his or her windows.)

MODERATOR: A well rounded story or novel needs to set a certain MOOD (mysterious, humorous, sad, etc.), but how can this fiction technique apply to nonfiction?

Kenny:Yes - mood is also set by the use of descriptive writing, as I explained above. Otherwise you stand to write very dry, rather boring material.

MODERATOR: One obvious fictional element that is crucial are the story characters. Are there also KEY PLAYERS in nonfiction?

Kenny:Yes - the people you are writing about!

MODERATOR: Can you name some KEY PLAYERS in your nonfiction?

Kenny:In my African books, it is the great kings and queens of African history. I'm working on a book now about Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain who financed Columbus' voyages. Obviously, those three will be the key players.

MODERATOR: What about DIALOGUE? It's so important in storytelling in fiction, yet most reviewers and librarians are opposed to the use of invented dialogue in juvenile nonfiction, aren't they?

Kenny:Yes. Dialogue has its place in nonfiction, but it can also be dull. It's important in biographies, because you want to capture the way in which a person speaks, especially if it is very particular in some way. But in general, you don't use dialogue much in nonfiction; you report it.

MODERATOR: We have a couple of questions here about research . . .

Dee: Do you write a proposal first?

Kenny:Yes. I never write a book until I've sold it. Then I do the research.

MODERATOR: Can a beginning writer do that, sell first I mean?

Kenny:I think all writers begin this way. Most publishers will look at a proposal, no matter who has written it. If it's good, they'll give you a go-ahead, especially in nonfiction. Not so much in fiction.

Sasquatch: Isn't it hard to sell something without ANY of it written or researched? I am thinking in terms of a new writer, of course.

Kenny:It's hard, but usually, in order to write a really good proposal you have to do a ton of research anyway! Also, most editors will ask for a writing sample. If you're new, they'll want to see a few chapters.

Ladybug: What goes into writing a proposal?

Kenny:It's a good idea to look at proposals that already exist. For books, they are usually very extensive. They include a marketing rationale, a detailed breakdown of the targeted audience, a detailed chapter outline, a list of appendixes, such as glossary, maps, etc. and at least one or two completed chapters.

MODERATOR: I remember how daunting it was to write my first proposal. Any tips on help for writers doing it the first time?

Kenny:Take a look at as many others as you can get hold of. Research the market to find a publisher who you want to approach, then call them up and ask if they would be willing to send you samples of proposals of books already published. Then follow how they've been done and adapt for your own purposes. Most importantly, the editor must see that you've really done your homework and know what you're talking about. Don't pass yourself off as an expert if you're not. And make sure that you include the names of real experts who will either act as consultants or co-authors. For example, on my book LETTING GO, I need to find a recognized psychologist who will act as the "expert" who will comment on my chapters and ideas.

MODERATOR: This is fascinating, Kenny, and news to me that you can ask to see other people's proposals. From the questions I got, I think it is news to our viewers too!

Kenny:Yes - some publishers, of course, won't do that, but in my experience, they have. Agents are also a good place to try, or any other authors whose books have been published. You can also read the many books about writing nonfiction that are on the market. Most of them have proposal outlines that you can follow.

Verbivore: What are your favorite research resources when preparing to write an historical article?

Kenny:For research resources, it depends on what book I'm writing. For the African books, I used about 30 different libraries until I found one in the area that happened to have a great collection of books about Africa. I use the Internet a great deal, but am very careful to make sure my sources there are legitimate. I also consult experts a great deal. There's nothing better than someone who has spent a lifetime studying a particular subject. For the books on the Ancient Hebrews, I nearly went mad because everyone I consulted had different ideas and interpretations. It was extremely difficult to sort it all out and come out with a book that makes sense and doesn't offend anyone.

MODERATOR: I can well imagine! Back to comparing fiction and nonfiction for a moment . . . In chapter openings and story openings, fiction writers use "HOOKS." Is there something similar in nonfiction writing? From your own nonfiction, can you show us an example or two?

Kenny:I always try to end a chapter on a dramatic note and start the next one in a different space and time, but the technique is not used as much as in fiction. In my own books, I began each chapter of the African series with a story about the particular king or queen, most of these were drawn from oral histories which use similar techniques to fiction because the oral historians are telling stories and they develop their own styles, that is, they embellish, exaggerate and of course have their own agendas to fulfill. So one must distinguish between the story and the storyteller in nonfiction.

MODERATOR: In a nonfiction chapter book, what's the equivalent of a CLIFF-HANGER ENDING that we find in chapters in a novel? How do you get a reader to go on and read the next chapter when you can't fictionalize?

Kenny: Just think of your material as a story... Did the king win the war? Wait until next time... If he did win the war, what effect did it have on his kingdom? If the king won the war in one chapter, how about talking about the son and heir in the next, then moving back to the king in the following chapter. You need the same flow of material toward a climax as you do in fiction. Thus you want to space your highs and lows and pace your reader so they stay hooked.

MODERATOR: You're right! It IS so much like writing fiction novels!

Ladybug: Is there any web site you recommend for resources that is exceptional in your opinion?

Kenny: There isn't any single one that I have used extensively. For example, for Ferdinand and Isabella there are more than one million sites to choose from! I have to select the ones I think will be most helpful and obviously I can't see them all, so you develop an instinct for this.

MODERATOR: I have now a lengthy e-mail that came from a book writer earlier today, and I will post the whole thing, but in two pieces. Bear with me a minute . . .

Susan: I have a nonfiction topic (a biography subject, actually) that I'd like to do for children. I can get a lot of information from adult books that this man has written, but I can find only one on the author as a biographical subject. He is now deceased. I would like to know how to find an address to write to his wife. He (and she, as well) were/are famous people. Aren't their home addresses hard to obtain? How does one do that? Can I expect cooperation from her? In fact, do I need permission from her to write about her husband? Please address this problem of getting personal information such as photographs in childhood, anecdotes, etc., without becoming a harassment to a subject's family.

Kenny:OK, this is a tricky one and depends entirely on the feelings of the family involved. Yes, you must get permission for everything you use, even if it doesn't come directly from the family but from some other source. Otherwise you are breaking all kinds of laws and can get yourself mightily sued! To get the address, you might try the publisher, depending on your project, they might be willing to give it you, or they might forward a request from you.

(Please go to Part 2 of Kenny Mann's interview now.)

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