Rx for Writers

Transcripts

Thursday, June 24, l999

MODERATOR is Kristi Holl, Web Editor for the Institute's web site. Kristi is author of more than twenty juvenile novels and has taught writing at the Institute of Children's Literature for l5 years.

Karen is our guest speaker, Karen Lynn Williams. Karen is the author of four picture books and five chapter books, many of them making use of her overseas experiences. Her cross-cultural books include the picture books When Africa Was Home and Painted Dreams (set in Haiti). Karen is a mother of four who has been writing and publishing steadily for fifteen years.

Names color coded in green are audience members who had questions.

Interviews are scheduled for Thursday evenings: 8 Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, and 5 Pacific.

MODERATOR: Good evening! Welcome to our regular Thursday night online interview. I'm your moderator, Kristi Holl, the web editor for this web site. Tonight our guest will be Karen Lynn Williams. Karen has some fascinating stories to tell about how she's made use of her overseas experiences in her writing for children. Karen, you've successfully combined three major things in your life: raising a family, living overseas, and writing. Which came first? Did living overseas inspire you to write, or were you a writer already when you began your travels?

Karen: I have always wanted to be a writer and I took a few courses in college and post graduate but never enough to be serious about it. I thought I had to have a "real" job. When we were living in Malawi, life was simple with many fewer distractions than we have in the U.S. I had time to become serious about my writing. I took a correspondence course and wrote everyday. There was lots of fascinating material everywhere I looked, living in a third world country. When I came home I had several stories and articles published. At the time I had one child, Peter. Christopher was born in Malawi. It turns out that the third world is not only a good place to write but to have children as well, since it was easy to have household help and there were hundreds of other children for my children to play with. That made it easy to have children AND write.

MODERATOR: What about language barriers? How did you handle that?

Karen: In both Malawi and Haiti we had excellent language instruction and I don't worry about making a fool of myself, so I learned Chichewa in Malawi and Creole in Haiti well enough to sound very illiterate but to make myself understood.

MODERATOR: Were you able to do firsthand research? Were those living in Africa and Haiti open to questions, or did you just observe their lives?

Karen: All of my research in those places was pretty much first hand. For GALIMOTO, my first book, I followed the children around and watched then building these toys. In Haiti I took lots of Tap-tap rides and that was my research for TAP-TAP. Living in a third world culture, my research was constant; I was living it. Everyone in both countries was friendly and helpful and always happy to chat about almost anything. I was writing for children and communication with them was easier. They were more than eager for the attention.

Dee: Did they know you were a writer while researching?

Karen: Some of them knew I was a writer but it didn't mean much to them. Most of the time I was just interacting as I would anyway, but with a writer's mind set.

Mel: What is a Tap-Tap ride?

Karen: Tap-taps are these great little busses (public transportation,) painted brightly and beautifully. I was fascinated by them; the best part is that the way you tell the driver to stop so you can get off is that you Tap-tap on the side of the bus.

MODERATOR: That's fascinating! Did you use any other native stories or retold folk tales in your writing?

Karen: I never used any folk tales directly for my stories but sometimes I think I have tried to use the "flavor" of a particular story (or what I know about the culture from a story or folk tale) in my books, if that makes sense.

MODERATOR: Tell us where you got the idea for WHEN AFRICA WAS HOME.

Karen: WHEN AFRICA WAS HOME was very much the experience of my son Peter while we were living in Malawi. I wanted to recreate the simple pleasant life that he (we all) had there and share it with children here and also make the point that what we in America think is "normal" or best is not necessarily so. Peter knows in the story that America is not his home even though his parents keep telling him it is. I thought when I wrote that book that the only people who would appreciate it were people who had lived in Africa. How foolish I was! So many people tell me that is their favorite book of mine, and none of them have been to Africa. I think that is because I was often crying at my desk while writing that book because I was homesick for Africa. That kind of passion shines through in a story for a reader. Also I think most of us have had to leave a special place and we all remember when somewhere else was home.

Mel: Why were you in Africa?

Karen: My husband and I were peace corps volunteers. I was a teacher of the deaf and then an English teacher in a secondary school. Steve was a doctor in a district hospital.

MODERATOR: Tell us about PAINTED DREAMS, which is set in Haiti.

Karen: PAINTED DREAMS grew out of my interest in Haitian art. I was fascinated by the ability of the people of such a poor country, the poorest in the western hemisphere, who could still find the passion for beauty. It seemed every other person in Haiti was an artist even if he sat out in his cornfield and painted with discarded tubes of paint and feathers for brushes. I did some research and was very interested to learn that so many Haitian artists began studying art in a kind of apprenticeship as children.

MODERATOR: Wow!! What about the art for cross-cultural books? Was it done by someone from that country?

Karen: I was lucky that Catherine Stock who did GALIMOTO was from S. Africa, and she knew all about Galimotos, the toys children build from wire. She also took a trip to Malawi so the details in that book are perfect. She also did Tap-tap and went to Haiti to do that book. I had been hoping for a Haitian artist to do PAINTED DREAMS because of the subject but again Catherine stock has been there and did a fine job.

MODERATOR: What part did your family play in your writing overseas?

Karen: As I have mentioned, I got the idea for my book WHEN AFRICA WAS HOME from the experiences of my son Peter. I have written several other books that are heavily influenced by my children's experiences in Haiti. None of them have been published yet. Because I am a parent in both those countries I saw the experiences we were having through the eyes of my children and I also was able to connect with families and children and other mothers in a way that I would not have without my family there. All of that has influenced my writing.

MODERATOR: Do you need to have lived in a foreign setting to write a book about it? Why or why not?

Karen: That's a hard one. I think living in the foreign setting definitely gives your book authenticity. If you don't experience the culture at least with a visit to that country, then you need to do research and confer with native people of the culture. I have several ideas for stories that take place in other countries--some in the Caribbean--but I have not been there, and I don't know if I can do the job effectively and honestly.

MODERATOR: Do your books sell in the countries in which they are set?

Karen: My books are set in third world countries where few people can read and fewer still can afford books. I think a few copies are sold in a book store here and there and the books reach the countries through missionaries and others traveling there.

MODERATOR: We all know it's easier to write at home in our own rooms at our own desks. But we're all gone from home a lot (to day jobs, on business trips or vacations) and you were gone overseas in very unusual places. Can you give us some ideas for writing AWAY from our comfortable spots at home?

Karen: The best part abut writing is that you can do it anywhere with as little as a pencil stub and a piece of paper. I wrote my first books at the dining room table in Malawi in pen and ink. My advice is don't spend a lot of time and energy on fixing a space. JUST WRITE anywhere, all the time. Of course I eventually need to find a quiet place by myself to think and put it all together.

MODERATOR: Karen, I'd like to zero in more specifically now on your picture book writing . . . You've published four picture books, and we're told that by far the largest number of submissions book editors receive are for picture books. So the competition is fierce in the first place. What has helped you sell in this very competitive field?

Karen: I think I was lucky to break into the field with very timely material when multiculturalism was just becoming important. Beyond that, I really studied the field, the books and the markets. I love picture books and see them as a very special art form unto themselves. I used to go to the library and check out as many picture books as I could get at one time on my card, my husband's and all of my children's cards.

MODERATOR: You're certainly right about picture books being an art form. Picture books have very strict requirements and form, depending on the type and the age group you intend it for. Can you talk about some of these requirements?

Karen: It is important to know that picture books usually have 32-48 pages and that the pictures and text are meant to complement each other. So a lot of the material you might include in a longer text can go in the illustrations for a picture book. If the book is a longer storybook for older children, the concepts and language will be more complex and the text longer. If the book is for younger children there may be only one word on a page, as in some board books. For me, writing picture books is like writing poetry (which I do not do well) in that every word must count, so you must choose just the right word. Also the sounds of words are important, as is word play.

MODERATOR: By definition, picture books are visual. How do you "think visually" when deciding on a picture book text?

Karen: That's hard to say and it's an interesting question. I have been told by several artists that I write very visually and I guess I think visually because the only other thing I ever wanted to be (besides a writer) was an artist. I always had a pencil and was drawing as a child and even older, more than writing. I think you train your eye that way to really see what you are looking at. As a writer you must then transfer what you see into words.... I hope I am making sense.

MODERATOR: Since I don't think visually AT ALL, I find this whole concept intriguing. How much description goes into the text of a picture book?

Karen: Oh, boy! You are asking for answers that are not taught in a writing course. How much description? Just enough but not too much. It's something you get a feel for by reading other picture books. But for me, writing the books about Africa and Haiti, the language and description were so influenced by the culture. It helped me a lot. I was so visually tuned into everything in those countries. Living was intense and it made my writing intense. I know I'm beginning to sound like an "artist," but there you have it.

judy: Does writing picture books always have to have a teaching purpose, or can they be just for fun for the reader?

Karen: Absolutely not, picture books should always be fun and can just be fun for the reader. I think the strongest books have several levels which is why they are such great read alouds, enjoyed by the adult reader as well as the child.

Dee: Isn't the description mainly conveyed through the pictures?

Karen: Right, in most cases, the description in the picture book is often left to the illustrator so there's no need to tell us in the text that Tommy has blond hair unless there is a reason, like word play fun, but this is where the visual concept gets sticky because the language should be evocative.

MODERATOR: Several people have asked this question: What is a picture book dummy, and how do you make one?

Karen: I knew we would get to this, and I have to say that I don't make dummies although some writers do. This is a 32 or 48 page book with your manuscript laid out just the way you would envision it in book form. So if you have only several words on a page, that is the way you type it and leave a page blank if it is meant to be a full page spread. But I let the art director and illustrator worry about the dummies unless an editor says to me, "Dummy this up so I can get a feel for what you have in mind."

MODERATOR: Karen, do you show your dummies to your editor? Is that how you submit them?

Karen: No, I submit a picture book in manuscript form. My picture book manuscripts are usually about five pages long.

MODERATOR: Do you choose your own illustrators?

Karen: Alas, that is the job of the editor and the art director, which in the end is probably a good thing. They know so many more illustrators and styles than I could possibly know. Editors usually don't want to know what the author has to say about who illustrates his or her book. They feel pretty strongly that this how they can make the magic happen, by using their expertise to match up the right illustrator and author.

MODERATOR: What if someone wants to write and illustrate his own picture books? Should he include samples of his art work with the submission?

Karen: You can include samples of your art but do so only if you are a trained illustrator. Apparently there is a lot of technical knowledge one needs to have in order to work successfully as an illustrator, and editors are loathe to get stuck with someone who doesn't understand this. If you do include your art, make sure you make it quite clear that you are willing to have your book published with someone else's art.

MODERATOR: If you can't send sketches, then what do you do when there MUST be something significant in the illustration on a particular page, but you're not going to describe it in the actual story? Do you add a sketch?

Karen: If there is something significant that must be in an illustration so the story makes sense, the writer can describe the intended illustration in parenthesis under the line of text where the illustration would go.

Dee: How long does it take to write a picture book? I mean, do you do as much prewriting as you do a chapter book?

Karen: A picture book often takes less time but there are numerous rewrites and lots of prewriting in my case, so I can generate pages and pages of material before I get it right. I spend a lot of time "think writing" too. I usually play around with picture book ideas for at least a year. But that is my experience.

MODERATOR: Back to the art for a minute . . . Have you had any input on the art work of your picture books?

Karen: I have had a little input but that was because I was considered an authority as I had been to the particular countries when the editor and art director had not. Mostly I have to say they don't listen to me, but I have never felt strongly enough to push the issue. When I was just beginning I didn't know I could say anything.

MODERATOR: What IS the usual relationship between a picture book writer and her illustrator?

Karen: Usually the editor likes to keep the writer and illustrator apart; the idea is that once the book is written, I must give it up and it becomes the project of the illustrator for the time being. Editors want to give them full artistic leeway unless the artist wants to talk to the writer.

MODERATOR: I think letting go of the book and your vision for its art would be difficult sometimes . . .

Karen: First, I have decided that if I do the job right then I will evoke in the artist what needs to be evoked for him or her to do a successful job, but it is indeed very difficult to let go.

Dee: Do you "pitch" the picture book idea to an editor before writing it?

Karen: I always just write the book. It's very hard for me to describe an idea. I am usually writing what I need to write, hoping it will sell.

MODERATOR: Karen, do you write picture books in verse? What are the pros and cons of rhyming picture books?

Karen: Editors warn against verse unless you are very good, Dr. Suess, for example. You must be very different as well and there must be a reason for the verse.

MODERATOR: Note to the audience: thanks for the great comments! I, too, am learning a great deal about picture book writing!

MODERATOR: Changing topics now, you've also written five chapter books. First, could you define a "chapter book" for us?

Karen: In my mind, a chapter book is a book with chapters but less complex than a novel.

MODERATOR: How does a chapter book differ from an "easy reader" below it and a work of "middle grade" fiction above it?

Karen: An easy reader is set up differently on the page, so it is easy to read with larger print and ideas in bite size pieces, simple paragraph forms. There may be chapters of a page or two because the child reading an easy-to-read book wants to feel he or she is reading a "real" book. A middle grade book is written in chapters more substantial in length, but still less complex than a YA novel, shorter, easier language, less complex concepts and fewer subplots, perhaps one or two and of course the characters are younger.

MODERATOR: How long are average chapter books?

Karen: My chapter books range form around 100 to 200 pages, but now more and more they seem to be all over the board. These terms seem to mean different things to different publishers who are all trying to establish their own lines of books with special qualities, requirements and restrictions.

MODERATOR: That's a good thing to point out.

Dee: When you are writing chapter books, how do you know when you have enough conflict but not too much?

Karen: I not sure you can ever have too much conflict. I wrote a book, FIRST GRADE KING, and one reviewer said nothing happens in the book and a child wrote to me and wanted to know why I had such terrible things happen in my books; when I first wrote that book, one editor said she wanted to commit suicide after reading it and didn't think she could publish it and another thought it was great. Go figure!

MODERATOR: I can't!!! I'm curious, as are a few of our viewers . . . Are your chapter books fiction or nonfiction?

Karen: My chapter books are all fiction, but all based on real life stuff from my life, my kids, my husband and the news.

MODERATOR: If someone writes nonfiction chapter books, do they always use photos?

Karen: No, it is not necessary to always use photos for nonfiction.

MODERATOR: What kinds of subjects can a writer cover in chapter books?

Karen: I think just about anything goes, depending on the age: mysteries, fantasy, real life problems, just about any genre, science fiction and so on.

Dee: What is easier for you, picture books or chapter books?

Karen: I think picture books are maybe a little easier, at least psychologically. They are a shorter project so it seems like less work. But the idea for the whole book, BASEBALL AND BUTTERFLIES, came to me almost complete so it seemed very easy to write. BASEBALL AND BUTTERFLIES was a chapter book

MODERATOR: Tell us about that book--intriguing title!

Karen: I wanted to write about all the competition between my two sons who were about 8 and 6 at the time. One had a butterfly collection and the other was good at baseball. The younger one kept getting into the older one's stuff and so on... I needed a climax or high point in the story and I remembered when I was young and my brother burned his had on the stove. The resolution came from a news article I saw about two brothers who played as on player on the same baseball team when one brother broke his leg.

Steve: Do you plan to go back overseas to live at some point? The lifestyle sounded so relaxing, the way you described it.

Karen: I would love to go back overseas. I would be there now except for college tuition and a few other details that require an income... Life was not always easy but it was definitely simpler.

Kimmie777: How long have you been a writer?

Karen: I have been writing seriously for about 15 years.

Dee: How long after you had taken the writing course did your first book come out?

Karen: My first article were published about a year after the course. The books about three years after the course.

Mere: What inspired you to become a writer?

Karen: I was inspired by my parents and grandparents who were wonderful storytellers. I always wanted to be part of stories. We always read out loud as a family even after we could read ourselves. My mother had an antique children's book collection and it was a family outing to go to second hand book stores. I have always loved books not just to read but to hold and touch and smell, and I wanted to be part of creating them.

MODERATOR: What a wonderful legacy!

Mel: How old are your children now and what are you writing about now?

Karen: Peter is 19 and goes to the Univ. of Wisc. Christopher is 17, Rachel is 14, and Jonathan is 9. I have a book coming out in the fall, middle grade chapter book (here we are back to that again), called ONE THING I'M GOOD AT which is about a child much like my daughter who has reading problems and low self-esteem and how she overcomes. I am also working on a book about a girl, about 11 or 12, who gets dragged unwillingly to Haiti where she is miserable but she does something very brave and learns about herself and the world, I hope.

MODERATOR: The reading problem book sounds like a book SO MANY kids could identify with! Here's an unusual question from a viewer . . .

Mel: I am an ASL student right now. Did you teach the hearing their sign language or the hearing the deaf sign language?

Karen: I taught hearing impaired students in different settings. ASL in student training, but didn't get to use it in the programs I worked in. In Malawi, the children had hearing aids and were expected to speak, so you know they invented their own sign language. In other programs we used something called qued speech.

Mere: Did you have a tough time finding a publisher?

Karen: I was a member of a very active writers groups and one of the members had published and suggested that I try her publisher because she thought they needed multicultural books, so I was in the right place at the right time.

MODERATOR: I'm sorry to have to stop now, but our time with Karen is up. Thank you so much, Karen, for sharing your experiences with us this evening. I know our viewers learned a lot about writing picture books and chapter books. I know I did! We appreciate you spending time with us tonight!

Karen: Thanks for having me. I hope you can read all this. I write like I talk: too fast. Really I never send an editor anything that looks like this! Bye!

MODERATOR: Please come back next Thursday night when Kenny Mann joins us. She is a specialist in nonfiction writing, has worked as an editor and writer for nonfiction, and worked as a journalist in Kenya, Great Britain and the U.S. before turning to books for children. Kenny has written seven nonfiction books on history for young readers, and two stories for early readers. Nonfiction is an excellent market for new and experienced writers alike, so come back next week with your questions for Kenny Mann. Until then, have a great week!

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